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warren 08 Nov 05

People who are different from each other are naturally prejudicial towards one another.

It was foolish of the politicians who ushered in such liberal immigration policies in the 1960s to let in so many immigrants when those immigrants are so poor and backward, and when the populace was likely to be prejudiced towards them.

Most of the people arrested in the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles were illegal immigrants. I don’t see why something similar couldn’t happen in America.

Darrel 08 Nov 05

No, it’s about poverty and unemployment. At least it’s related. Racial tension lines seem to run parallel to economic lines. And while the poverty issue may not have been *the* issue, it most likely was an itchy trigger finger.

those immigrants are so poor and backward

See, that’s the problem. Seeing immigrants as ‘poor and backward’. How do you expect them to react to that attitude?

I don’t see why something similar couldn’t happen in America.

It’s happened throughout our history. Race riots. Union riots. Civil War.

Don Wilson 08 Nov 05

Most of the immigrants, at least in Texas, aren’t here to be fellow countrymen.

tim 08 Nov 05

As a french who recently moved to Canada, I’d say that this bound to happen sooner or later. It may sounds stupid to say that _after_ the facts, but it’s something I and *many* people have experienced every day of the past 10 years.
Nobody can enjoy living in those suburbs. And people who managed to succeed in this environment are probably the most courageous people in the world.
The incidents will probably fade soon and unfortunately come back in the near future if nothing is done to stop the precarity and unemployment urgently…
There has been one victim so far, and let’s hope he’ll be the only one…

Andreas 08 Nov 05

Here’s what someone that knows a bit more about the situation has to say:

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/11/why_is_france_b.html

Josh 08 Nov 05

Well, at least the French “Holier than thou” is finally properly losing steam. Unfortunate that it had to happen this way, but I say they’ve made their bed, and now it’s time to sleep in it.

Or is all this Bush / America’s fault as well? ;)

Seriously, though, I think you are completely right about the coming issues of immigration and assimilation.

It’s one thing to let people into your country when they want to be fellow countrymen, but it’s something completely different when they just want to live there

Are you saying that part of the problem is that people don’t want to assume the responsibility of a proper citizen? Just asking for clarification.

jperkins 08 Nov 05

Nothing intelligent to add regarding the situation in France and its history of immigration policies, the larger issue of cultural assimilation, etc… but I have a old, dear friend residing in Lyons with his wife and new born daughter and I’ve been unable to get in touch with him since last Saturday and I’m more than a little concerned.

Jean-Michel 08 Nov 05

I think we should keep things in perspective: this is certainly a serious issue, but from this graphic it looks like the whole of France is burning! It looks worst than Baghdad!

Alan McCann 08 Nov 05

There is quite a mix of factors at play in France
- failed socialist policies creating a stagnating economy with incredibly high unemployment while also enabling an idle population on welfare
- apparent racism within France that keeps outsiders from climbing the ladder despite the official line that all are citizens
- radical and not so radical muslim belief’s in their superiority that says that western civilization is evil and that says muslims should not assimilate

All three of these are working together to create an evil stew.

Jos 08 Nov 05

The riots are slowly spreading across countries.. In Brussels a couple of cars have been set on fire, windows of a journalist car have been smashed,.. Hopefully this isn’t an epidemic that is going to spread over whole Europe. I mean, France isn’t the only country where there are lots of young unemployed immigrants. They are pretty much everywhere. What if they all start to burn cars and kill people?

Instead of taking responsibility, and developing themselves, they prefer to blame everything on the government, and start riots at the expense of innocents.. Hopefully governments will quickly be able to contain the problem.

Kris 08 Nov 05

wretchard of the Belmont Club has good coverage:

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

Bryan C 08 Nov 05

Your distinction between being part of a country and just living there is exactly right. Letting immigrants (particuarly illegal immigrants) form private city-state enclaves within your country is never a good idea. It’s the path of least resistance, but that path doesn’t go anywhere we want to be.

That policy doesn’t do the ghettoized immigrants any favors, since they’ll never be made to exert the effort necessary to achieve the success they really want. Without language skills and a working knowledge of the societal norms they’ll never be fully functioning members of society. They’ll be dependent on the charity of their “hosts” for everything, and nothing destroys ambition or self-esteem more completely than a few generations of that.

It doesn’t do your legal immigrants any favors. They’re personally victimized by the criminals and radicals who’ve decided to be their new masters, forced to compete against illegals for jobs and housing, and stigmatized by the poor example and illegitimate status of their unassimilated former countrymen.

And it doesn’t do the natural-born citizens any good, either. You may get cheap labor for a while without offending your sense of cultural inclusivity (or, especially in France, cultural purity). But you’re really only breeding an attitude of entitlement, seperatism, and futility. Sooner or later self-serving, powerhungry radicals will start recuiting, and there’s no easy and inoffensive way to stop them.

I think that letting this spree of arson and violence go this long is just another manifestation of the same problem: excessive sensitivity and insufficient enforcement of society’s rules. Being angry and poor is not an excuse for rampaging across the countryside setting peoples’ property on fire. The authorities need to stop this now and remove the ringleaders. Talk about fixing it can wait until after the worst of the lot is locked up or deported.

Fred C. 08 Nov 05

I’ve been living in the Paris suburb for 25 years and I can tell you that this situation is not new nor worrying. There has been riot and burning cars for years (even decades). At every new year’s day at least 100 cars are burnt each time in eastern France and Paris.

World news lacks of big stories these last days, that’s why France riots are in the spotlight.

…

…

…

But maybe I should rent a park lot for my car… just in case…

/Fred

Michael 08 Nov 05

I like Bryan C’s comments.

Jim 08 Nov 05

I think its more about poverty and unemployment - religion/race/assimilation are only serving to amplify the helping a large number of the disaffected to feel solidarity amongst themselves. I think you’re right about immigration/assimilation being one of the biggest issues of the century; I just don’t think it’s the biggest factor in this case.

As some others have said, the map is wildly misleading. Paris itself (as opposed to its satellite suburbs) is largely affected, and other regions are only seeing small amounts of unrest. There’s a big flash there over where I live, but perhaps only 5% of the city is affected, and as far as I know its in the order of a dozen cars burnt over the last 4 days.

I may sound blasé, but as an outsider living here, I’ve been surprised. French people, or at least those that I’ve spoken to, are even less immediately concerned (which is not to say they don’t recognise the deep-seated social problems).

Mark A 08 Nov 05

I think the opening comment was - perhaps unintentionally - a bit smug. The US is just as likely as anywhere to suffer these underprivileged community effects. I seem to remember LA having rioting a while back?

Telling immigrants they’re equal citizens (often as an excuse to coercing them to assimilate - by dropping long held customs) and then not giving them equality of opportunity is bound to have undesired effects.

If the only ‘opportunity’ you have is hanging around without a job, money, support, etc., rioting might appear no worse a way to spend the day. Arguably it beats sitting doing nothing and in winter the fires help keep you warm.

That’s not to condone what happens, but rather to say I’m just not surprised. Anyone saying “it couldn’t happen my country” is deluding themselves - unless, of course, no one wants to go to your country in the first place! I wish I had an answer to the underlying causes…but I don’t.

LapinLove404 08 Nov 05

I do like Bryan C’s comment as well.

But then, which country can pretends doing anything else that what he describes ?

And speaking about “insufficient enforcement of society’s rules”, I can only mentions the low tolerance of the French police and the higly repressive politics for the last 3 years…

Darrel 08 Nov 05

Well, at least the French “Holier than thou” is finally properly losing steam.

Hopefully America’s “Holier than thou” will start loosing steam.

- failed socialist policies creating a stagnating economy with incredibly high unemployment while also enabling an idle population on welfare
- apparent racism within France that keeps outsiders from climbing the ladder despite the official line that all are citizens
- radical and not so radical muslim belief’s in their superiority that says that western civilization is evil and that says muslims should not assimilate

I like how these statements can easily reflect the US:

- failed unregulated capticalistic policies creating a stagnating economy with incredibly high unemployment while also enabling an idle population on welfare
- apparent racism within the US that keeps outsiders from climbing the ladder despite the official line that all are citizens
- radical and not so radical christian belief’s in their superiority that says that easter civilization is evil and that says christians should not assimilate

Darrel 08 Nov 05

Being angry and poor is not an excuse for rampaging across the countryside setting peoples’ property on fire.

The problem is that, in many parts of the world, that’s the only option they have if they expect to be heard. It’s a shitty way to go about it (and I’m hoping not the only way in France). Perhaps others need to do more listening as well.

Darrel 08 Nov 05

And, to be fair, certain muslim sects’ teachings are part of the problem…just as certain [insert nearly any religion] sects’ teachings cause problems around the world.

FineJames 08 Nov 05

The French are paralyzed because they can’t figure out who to surrender to

RH 08 Nov 05

Here is how Switzerland handles this issue:

Conditions to be met before becoming a Swiss Citizen
1) You are integrated in the Swiss community.
2) You are accustomed to Swiss way of life and practices.
3) You comply with the Swiss legal system.
4) You in no way compromise the internal or external security of Switzerland.

Does anyone know if the riots have spread the this “Neutral” country?

Cyril 08 Nov 05

The news reports and these “flashpoints” maps are a bit misleading.

jperkins, you have nothing to worry about. I live in Lyon and everything is normal here. I read that a few cars were burned in the suburbs but nobody was injured.

These events happen in very limited areas. Saddly, the rioters burn their own neighbourhoods. In fact, the cars they destroy belong to their friends and parents.

To date, there was only one casualty. I wish it won’t get worse. Burned cars make spectacular images but don’t hurt that much …

Shane 08 Nov 05

This situation can very easily spread to the U.S as well. No one seems to adhere to MLK’s goals of unity and equality. Now its about separatism and no one is talking about it! There are TV channels (BET) catering to only black people. There are schools that only teach in Spanish for Spanish speaking communities. The media seems to cater to an increasingly specific demographic., i.e: FOX for republicans, ABC for democrats, WB for black kids. We need to start integrating, and actually LIVING the spirit of the 1st Amendment.

Oh, and for the guy who said that immigrants are poor and backward? You mean illegal ones right? We need to distinguish between illegal and non-illegal here. My parents were legal immigrants, and now my dad happens to be a CEO of a company, my mother is a teacher, my brother is in Law school, and I’m a pretty well-off software engineer.

s 08 Nov 05

Darrell wrote:
- failed unregulated capticalistic policies creating a stagnating economy with incredibly high unemployment while also enabling an idle population on welfare

Maybe you should do some research before making these types of comments (http://www.axcessnews.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=6447).

Even after all of the hurricanes, we’re still at 5% unemployment, and the economy is still growing.

- apparent racism within the US that keeps outsiders from climbing the ladder despite the official line that all are citizens

For the most part, this is perceived racism. If you can’t do things for yourself, then it must be racism.

- radical and not so radical christian belief’s in their superiority that says that easter civilization is evil and that says christians should not assimilate

I don’t get where you’re going with this one.

Ramanan 08 Nov 05

It’s one thing to let people into your country when they want to be fellow countrymen, but it’s something completely different when they just want to live there.

Where did you hear that the kids rioting don’t want to be a part of French society? From my understanding of the situation, the riots were sparked by the killings of two children running from the police, and frustration over the overt racism directed towards the Blacks and Arabs living within France. How many first generation children do you think don’t want to be a part of the larger French community? They speak the language, and probably have very loose ties to the countries their families are from.

Blaming immigration for a societies woes is not a new idea. If French society is not inclusive, whose fault is that? You need only look to Canada to see that treating immigrants like first-class citizens does wonders for a society.

I think this post is one of the most ignorant, racist, piece of shit posts I’ve seen on your site. And I’ve been reading this site for a very long time.

Joe Grossberg 08 Nov 05

warren:

“Most of the people arrested in the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles were illegal immigrants”

Given the racial makeup of the rioters, I find that pretty hard to believe. Do you have any attribution for this claim or is it just something you “know”?

Thibaut 08 Nov 05

Another french input : these guys are not protesting. If you protest, you stand for something, you get yourself together and you go ahead with a clear voice, words, and why not actions, even violent actions.
Ok, there are big social problems in french suburbs, and the non integration of frenchies with african origins to the other frenchies is somehow almost non existant on most of the territory.
These guys are just having “fun” at night, they are kids experiencing the limits of authority, and most of all they have no respect at all but for violence. When they are interviewed on tv about the reason of their acts, it’s hard to see a real and anchored motiv.
The only I could see is a real anger towards police, which is to my point of view justified, because of their daily and unjustified agressive attitude, reasonably often racist too. White people leaving in the suburbs are not asked for ID where black people are asked for it 3 times a day by policemen they meet everyday. This would turn me insane too. But I’m not sure I would burn my neighbour’s cars because of this.

They don’t seem to realize how the extreme right is having a great time looking at this, a big smile spreading on its face. Next elections are going to be another big slam on our faces, and when you see how the actual government is lurking at these electors, you can understand the lack of actions there is from their part in front of such a situation.
If the rich and touristy parts of Parisland where the place of the riots, it wouldn’t have last so long and spread over, I’m pretty sure.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Do you have any attribution for this claim or is it just something you “know”?

Well seeing as how Warren thinks all immigrants are poor and backwards, I am guessing he’s talking out of his ass.

Dean 08 Nov 05

I was surprised to see a copyrighted image from the Telegraph used in this weblog post without attribution. It is also being served directly from 37 signals. The image was taken from the following article:

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/08/wfran08.xml

John Revel 08 Nov 05

Most of the immigrants, at least in Texas, aren’t here to be fellow countrymen - Don wilson

What in the world is a “Fellow Countryman”?

Jocke 08 Nov 05

“France seems to be slowly coming apart… even more worrisome than the lackluster economy, structural rigidity and persistent social problems that Mr. Camdessus described is the absence of hope among the French people—a complete lack of faith that the future might bring something better in what has become the last collectivist nation in the Western world…

From early childhood on, a Frenchman walks into a centralized universe worthy of the late Soviet regime. Public schools boast a rigid structure inimical to learning, where all creativity and ambition are killed off…

Then there is our chronic unemployment, which for the past 20 years has oscillated between 8.5% and 12%. The main victims are our youth, those between 15 and 24. Only 25% of this age group is employed, compared with 54% in the U.S. People stay unemployed over 16 months on average in France, while in the U.S. it´s less than five months. No wonder the young feel so insecure and vulnerable.”

- The young French liberal Aurélien Véron in Wall Street Journal, 28 April 2005.

http://www.liberte-cherie.com/scans_art.php?id=157

(I got this link from: http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=displayblog&month=11&year=2005#1351)

mrod 08 Nov 05

France Burns For Its Sins

Darrel 08 Nov 05

Maybe you should. The way the US measures unemployment is MUCH different than Europe. Our method hides a lot of unemeployment, and also doesn’t include the fact that they’re simply measuring jobs. Not the quality of jobs.

For the most part, this is perceived racism. If you can’t do things for yourself, then it must be racism.

This is typical ‘I’m an american so all these problems don’t actually happen here because’ ignorance. Yep. Some people are lazy. Yep. We still have racism in this country (though it’s becoming more economic based than skin color based)

I don’t get where you’re going with this one.

Merely that there’s radicals everywhere.

Michael 08 Nov 05

I always find it funny that people feel government is the solution to racism and discrimination. Government tends to be the primary implementation of racist and discriminatory policies. In the US, the South used laws and police to enforce racism. In Germany Hitler used the government to execute millions of jews. Additionally, every step of government regulation adds another point of potential discrimination. A racist restaurant inspector could fail minority restaurants more frequently than non-minority ones. A racist liquor board could deny most minority requests, preventing them from selling profiting from liquor sales.



When a company engages in discrimantory behavior it opens up a market for a competitor. However, when government engages in discrimanatory behavior there is often little recourse. In fact, governments are responsible for the most heinous acts of discrimination in our history. So why does everybody look to the government to be their protector?

s 08 Nov 05

This is typical ‘I’m an american so all these problems don’t actually happen here because’ ignorance.

Actually, my parents are hispanic and came to this country (legally) with nothing. Only through hard work, and not depending on the government, were they able to be successful. So I am a little jaded - you have to work hard to get anywhere in this country. Sitting around and waiting on the government won’t do it for you.

My problem with your statement is that although there are situations of real poverty here, there are far too many cases of people conditioned to wait for the government to do things for them. When they don’t get what they want, it must be racism.

Alex Bunardzic 08 Nov 05

I agree with the original post. There is a difference between becoming a member of the community and simply looking for a place to live.

Regarding the question why couldn’t it also happen here: I moved to Canada from Europe 15 years ago. We moved with the intention to settle in Canada and to embrace Canadian ways. Not even once in the 15 years I’ve been here have I felt any hint coming from my fellow countrymen that I’m a foreigner, or a second-class citizen. I’ve always been treated as if I was born here, simply because I’ve shown utmost respect for the local ways of living from the day one.

Most people living here are in the same boat. There is no feeling of divisiveness, hence the stability is much larger than in those highly divided countries, such as France, where if you’re not a born Frenchman, well, you’re going to forever be stigmatized as a second-class citizen. That can’t end up well, no matter how you put it.

Dude 08 Nov 05

> When a company engages in discrimantory behavior it opens
> up a market for a competitor. However, when government
> engages in discrimanatory behavior there is often little
> recourse. In fact, governments are responsible for the most
> heinous acts of discrimination in our history. So why does
> everybody look to the government to be their protector?

Do you know about the relations of the words “democracy” and “minority rights”? Apparently not. Please go look it up:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/principles/majority.htm

mtara 08 Nov 05

Journalists, philosophers and other thinkers wonder what will be the biggest issue of tomorrow. Needlessly. Jason knows the answer just now! It’s immigration.

Back to writing about usability and other fields familiar to your brain.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Michael, if you want to live in a democracy, then you need to protect the rights of the minority within that democracy.

“The will of the people, moreover, practically means the will of the most numerous or the most active part of the people; the majority, or those who succeed in making themselves accepted as the majority; the people, consequently, may desire to oppress a part of their number; and precautions are as much needed against this as against any other abuse of power.” — On Liberty by John Stuart Mill

s 08 Nov 05

Maybe you should. The way the US measures unemployment is MUCH different than Europe. Our method hides a lot of unemeployment, and also doesn’t include the fact that they’re simply measuring jobs. Not the quality of jobs.

According to the OCED’s standardized unemployment calculation, the US is still looking pretty good:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/18595359.pdf

Michael 08 Nov 05

Obviously, we need to protect the right of the minority. However, often that is best done by having a smaller government. If Germany’s government had not been so powerful, perhaps we would have six million jews. If the governments of Mississippi and Alabama, elected by a majority of the people, had not been so powerful the Black minorities would have been much better off.

Your principles of democracy rely on the following tenet: “Minorities need to trust that the government will protect their rights and self-identity.”

Why would you trust a power hungry politician to do the right thing? I guess the problem with the Jews and Blacks is that they just didn’t “trust” their government enough. Let’s be honest most of the time government is not the solution, it is the problem.

Don Giannatti 08 Nov 05

I have first hand experience in the ‘non-assimilation’ mindset. My wife has taught in inner city schools here in Phoenix for more than 29 years. She has treated it as a calling - doing as much as she can for those who need a little help. She is retiring soon as she has had enough.

In recent years it has gone from “We are from (x) and we are trying to learn” to “We are here and do not want to be a part of this country.” There are faculty and student groups who wear their countries flag. There are groups that meet on campus who only speak their countries languages, and think of themselves as citizens of their home country, while being here illegally.

Now the most vile thing that one kid can say to another is “You white girl.” In this case, ‘white’ generally means “American”. The American culture is under assault as they begin to speak of it as a ‘salad bowl’ instead of a ‘melting pot.”

She has many, many Bosnian students, and they are aghast at ‘multiculturism. They want to be Americans. They have seen first hand what Balkanism can do to any society.

I love a melting pot of cultures, food, celebrations and heritages. But what we are seeing now is a division of the same. Not celebrating our differences and our sameness, but balkanizing against ‘them’ cause they aren’t like us.

My experience in France told me that there were no plans for assimilation in the Muslim areas. They do not respect French law, preferring Sharia in many areas, and simply demand their culture take center stage. Most in those areas do not speak French, and many of them are illegal immigrants as well. Respect for the culture of France is denigrated as they bring all of their culture (good and bad) with them.

This attitude is not ‘assimilation’, it is occupation.

Just my buck3eighty worth.

Cheers,
Don

Kyle 08 Nov 05

This has nothing to do with two kids getting killed, protesting, etc.

It’s a Holy War. Islam vs Christianity. Bottom line. Everyone is afraid to stand up and admit it. They (Muslims) are the first to admit it, but the politically correct in the world refuse, labeling it everything but what it really is. A WAR against the west and Christianity. America will wake up once it’s spread over on our own soil and our own government is paralized to protect us because of the fear of “offending” the “religion of peace, Islam”.

Looks peaceful to me, wow look at that car burn!

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Glad to see so many American experts are weighing in on Frances immigration problem.

Kids are rioting in the streets, and they are to blame for that. However, to pretend that these children haven’t tried to blend into French culture is laughable at best. These are first generation French children who are treated like second class citizens because they aren’t white. There are plenty of news reports on the subject, and several have been linked to here.

I think it is much easier to pretend this is simply a matter of “Us” vs. “Them”. It really goes to show that even those posting in this thread don’t consider the children rioting to be French. They are immigrants, no matter where they were born, what language they speak, and what clothes they wear.

I think there are few countries in the world more afraid of foreigners than America.

Darrel 08 Nov 05

Actually, my parents are hispanic and came to this country (legally) with nothing. Only through hard work, and not depending on the government, were they able to be successful. So I am a little jaded - you have to work hard to get anywhere in this country. Sitting around and waiting on the government won’t do it for you.

I agree. That doesn’t change the fact that there is still a lot of racism/prejudice in our society.

My problem with your statement is that although there are situations of real poverty here, there are far too many cases of people conditioned to wait for the government to do things for them. When they don’t get what they want, it must be racism.

That’s fair. And my problem with your statement is that it brushed of racism as simply being an excuse for lazy poor people. ;o)

According to the OCED’s standardized unemployment calculation, the US is still looking pretty good:

It does. But I’m not sure how the OCED standardizes those stats, either.

Let’s be honest most of the time government is not the solution, it is the problem.

Let’s be honest, most of the time it’s the problem because we don’t allow it to do what it should. At least in the US, we are the government, so any finger pointing that the government is really reflected on ourselves.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

I think Kyle has it figured out. It’s always those damn Mohamedans. If only the true religion of peace, Christianity, would stand up and protect us all. Kyle, you can recruit those guys that shoot abortion doctors and beat up homosexuals to help you out.

Michael 08 Nov 05

“I think there are few countries in the world more afraid of foreigners than America.”

I would just like to call bullshit on this. My wife moved from Russia to Germany when she was 12. She graduated from a German Gymanasium 3rd in her class. One of the reasons she came to America is because “In Germany you’ll never be considered German if you are an immigrant.”

Furthermore, almost every European country has historically had much tighter controls on immigration than the US. Someone mentioned how great Switzerland hasn’t had any riots. Well, they also hardly have any immigrants. In fact look at the Demographics for European countries, most have them have tiny immigrant populations. The reason these issues are finally surfacing in Europe is because the European Union requires these countries to open up their borders much more than they have done in the past.

Don Wilson 08 Nov 05

What in the world is a “Fellow Countryman”?

I was using Jason’s term. Ask him.

GB 08 Nov 05

After living in France for three years and returning every year since that time I must say that (after ramanan’s comment) I have seen quite a bit to the contrary of “blending in”. Compared to most countries around the world, this group of people are one of the most assisted AND catered to. Granted, there are those who would like to integrate and “become French”. The north african community has asked for AND relieved, in France, many exceptions (one of the most detrimental being allowed more than one wife). They have remained angry over issues of the Algerian war that the present french youth had nothing to do with (like the US and slavery). (Will our great-great grandchildren still be paying for something that we ourselves had nothing to do with?) Culturally speaking, from what I have seen first hand, they have not tried to integrate into this society and the north african youth have been single-handidly changing school standards (by not correctly learning the language and being delinquent) and quietly but forcefully changing the face of France by repressing their own culture. Lastly, on Marketplace (NPR) last night the author of a book twisted Sarkosy’s words to make it look like he was a fascist monster who wanted to kill off/”get rid of” all north Africans. The media needs to grow up and stop adding fuel to the fire by lying to increase sympathies and raise the level of hatred.

Me 08 Nov 05

There’s always more than meets the eye to these types of involved issues. But I’ll say this much - The United States of America became the greatest country in the world because the immigrants that came here saw themselves as *Americans*.

They did not see themselves as Italians living in another country. They did not call themselves Irish-American. And they, for the most part, came her in poverty. As someone said earlier, they worked themselves to the bone to make it.

But they saw themselves as Americans - as part of the country and not as some alien living in it, wanting it to be something that it wasn’t.

Sure there were, and are economic and social differences. But those things are far less of a problem when you feel like they are issues that can be handled on common ground among countryman - and not a “we vs. they” mentality, instead.

Furthermore, when an immigrant comes into a country where their moral beliefs see the naturalized citizens as “infidels” who ought to be, literally, destroyed - don’t be fooled into thinking these people are going to assimilate in any way, shape or form that you want them to. While that is painting with a broad brush, it is nevertheless far too true. And we don’t want to admit this is the case, because it’s “insensitive” and not “politically correct.”

In any event, the original post is pretty spot on.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

I agree with Ramaman to a degree, and Michael to a degree.

I don’t think this is so much a racial issue as it is an economic one. No matter where you go in the world, it’s the economically disadvantaged that are more likely to have factions of violence within them.

It seems obvious to me that the low-growth, socialistic policies of many of the European countries, combined with the high immigration is going to naturally lead to tensions. Like it or not, capitalism provides a natural growth of jobs when combined with immigration, whereas a more socialist approach only serves as a tool for suffocation when combined with immigration. As more and more immigrants flood into western countries (a good thing, IMO), the more socialist governments are going to tend to buckle under the pressure of trying to provide welfare and other services while these immigrants search for a work.

In addition, I find it odd that while so many of the “web 2.0” people who tend to want information to be free, and to tear down barriers and decentralize the web, are so quick to want to centralize the government, and throw up walls in their communities.

Francis Wu 08 Nov 05

As a second-generation immigrant (from Hong Kong to Montreal, Canada), I understand the challenges of good immigration policy. Despite the Star Trek-like utopian ideal of diversity, the reality is that immigration only works under certain conditions.

For one thing, you can’t just let anybody into your country without strong integration programs, especially to support 1st generation immigrants who aren’t familiar with the local language, and especially if they have low education. To this day, I continue to deal with consequences of this. I still have to proxy for them, and I still have to be present when my mom visits a doctor.

Another problem with loose immigration laws is how it affects the local labour sector. When locals cry out, “they’re taking all our jobs”, I understand where they’re coming from. Immigrants (including teens and seniors) make up a large labour market simply because they’re easier to exploit. Although my dad had a highly-skilled trade, my mom worked in textiles. Both my parents worked incredibly hard to make ends meet.

When my mom’s doctor (typical old white French Canadian) learned that she didn’t speak French or English even after nearly 30 years in Montreal, he was appalled. What most locals don’t understand is that one of the primary reasons for immigration is to escape poverty. So when I say “make ends meet”, it includes building the financial foundation to ensure their children’s highest education possible… with the misguided notion that it would ensure their wealth. My mom did some crazy hours and didn’t have time for education. I, however, got all the education I can bare and consequently, I’m fluently trilingual and well-integrated thanks to a pretty beefy immersion program in local education.

Interestingly enough, if there were poverty-related riots in the States, I’m not sure who’d participate. Would it be the immigrants because of an exploitative labour market? Or would it be the locals who want those shitty jobs? Or would it be almost everybody in a collective freak-realization that a trickle-down economy doesn’t work and only serves to concentrate wealth at the top?

I think I’ve begun to ramble now :P. In the end, what’s happening in France is a consequence of half-baked immigration policy.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

The children rioting are not immigrants. Well, unless not being white makes you an immigrant till the day you die. Reading this thread, I get the impression it does.

Will 08 Nov 05

I think Kyle has it figured out. It’s always those damn Mohamedans. If only the true religion of peace, Christianity, would stand up and protect us all. Kyle, you can recruit those guys that shoot abortion doctors and beat up homosexuals to help you out.

Cheers Ramanan. I was about to say roughly the same thing in response to Kyle’s lunacy.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

Also, I just want to comment on this notion of wanting to be American. I haven’t given this much thought, but there seems to be an underlying thread that the immigrants who don’t come to these western countries somehow don’t want to adopt to our cultures, and that this is somehow a new phenenomon.

A few things:

a) I think that’s a fairly significant generalization that does a great disservice to the majority of immigrants that do want to adopt to a certain way of life.

b) What does “becoming an American” mean these days? I’m not a religious person, and I hate to see the day that “becoming an American” was a euphemism for becoming Christian. So what does it mean? To a degree, the amount of diversity in America (again, a good thing), leads to an increased ability to allow various immigrants to come to America and continue to live within the norms of their culture. I have a great deal of Ethiopian friends who speak English and Amharic, but still congregate to common Ethiopian areas of the city. We should be mindful that having a cultural identity is to a certain degree, comforting for many immigrants.

c) The idea that every person that came to America wanted to become an American, and wasn’t just as opportunistic as many immigrants coming today is laughable. Simirarly, the idea that it was all hard work and fair play that made our arrival to America a success is again laughable. We had our fair share of corruption, civil disruption, etc.

That’s all I can think of right now. I just think this notion of “becoming American” maybe a bit less meaningful than it sounds.

Lisa 08 Nov 05

What’s wrong with being an immigrant?

The definitation (from m-w.com) is: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence.

What’s so bad about that?

Mike P. 08 Nov 05

While I’m in no place to comment definitively on France, I can say that the issues of immigration and assimilation, poverty and unemployment are huge in many European countries and are issues that, as seen in France, can and will get out of hand.

Lets hope something good comes from what is happeneing there, and other European countries open their eyes before this situation manaifests itself elsewhere.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Lisa, from what I’ve learned from reading this thread, that definition is out of date. An immigrant is someone who comes to a country to subvert it from the inside, as part of a grand plot to ruin the world for everyone.

Greg Macoy 08 Nov 05

When did this become a political blog? I thought 37signals were supposed stick to doing the things they know about, and keeping out of the things they don’t. Did I miss something?

Mike P. 08 Nov 05

but it’s something completely different when they just want to live there

This case does exist, and while I have no idea to what extent it exists in what is happening right now in France, I can cite quotes from people (family, no less) that are filled with angst towards immigrants whose main goal is not to be fellow countrymen, but to get into a country where maybe they can work under the table for a cheap, cheap wage, but more than they can get elsewhere.

This of course undermines the opportunities of the unemployed “natives”, and you can pretty much guess that those people aren’t too happy about things.

And comparing France to Canada, especially given it’s economic performance, is a bit ridiculous and uninformed.

mario 08 Nov 05

all political issues are about power/wealth (or lack thereof). Racisn, classism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism…all symptoms of a global populace who can’t come to accept equality. everyone is scared of suffering and therefor need someone, anyone, to blame/hate for their problems.

all you need is love.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

.. immigrants whose main goal is not to be fellow countrymen, but to get into a country where maybe they can work under the table for a cheap, cheap wage, but more than they can get elsewhere.

I read somewhere that all the Mexican migrant workers in Texas are happy — damn happy — to do crap work for crap pay. This is their dream, the almost-American dream.

Oh wait, that sounds stupid. Maybe things aren’t that simple.

And I would love Jason to define what a “fellow countrymen” is exactly. Do you need blonde hair and blue eyes to join the club.

Lisa 08 Nov 05

ramanan said…
Lisa, from what I’ve learned from reading this thread, that definition is out of date. An immigrant is someone who comes to a country to subvert it from the inside, as part of a grand plot to ruin the world for everyone.

That is so sad that people would feel that way.
The few bad apples are spoiling the bunch.

Original Kyle 08 Nov 05

Ramanan-
Funny thing is, those lunatics you mention aren’t Christians. They’re just that, lunatics using Christianity as a front. Same category as David Koresh and the Waco incident years ago. Now you’re going to say “Yes, but these terrorists aren’t true Muslims either”.. but you’re wrong. The fundamental base of Islam is manifesting itself in exactly what’s happening. Kill the infidels. That’s the foundation it’s based upon. Islam as the only dominating religion in the world, at all costs. High contrast vs Christianity, which is based peace and love. If a Christian converts to another religion, they’re not beheaded.

This isn’t all baseless uninformed prejudice on my part. I’ve seen true Islam. I’ve been on the ground in these countries (afghanistan, iraq, india, uae, etc). It’s more serious than the liberal media is telling you.

This is just fact, believe or not.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

@Greg:

From the top of the blog:

This is Signal vs. Noise, a weblog by 37signals about design, customer experience, entertainment, politics, Basecamp, products we like, small business, ourselves, and more. Established 1999 in Chicago.

Chuck McKinnon 08 Nov 05

Will, Ramanan:

I don’t subscribe to Kyle’s view that Islam is solely responsible for the current troubles in France (in my two-year experience, most of those kids are about as Muslim as the rest of France is Catholic).

However, while most Muslims are not terrorists, it is a sad but undeniable fact that most of the world’s terrorists, today, are Muslim.

You taunt Kyle with references to attacks on abortion doctors and homosexuals; that’s a pitiful straw man, easily demolished. Simply compare the percentage of self-described Christians (practicing or not, liberal or conservative, sane or insane) who shoot abortion doctors and beat on gays with the percentage of self-described Muslims (practicing or not, etc.) who claim religious justification for killing others not of their faith.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Kill the infidels. That’s the foundation it’s based upon.

I had always thought the main tenents of Islam were: to accept Allah as the one true god, Pray, give alms to the poor, make a pilgrimage to Meeca, and fast during Ramadan. Thanks for clearing things up for me.

Chuck, keep defending Kyle. He obviously knows what he’s talking about.

Mike P. 08 Nov 05

Ramanan: Maybe things aren’t that simple.

Not quite sure where you are going there, but my point was that I don’t think Jason’s comments were racist. While I can’t speak for him, “it’s something completely different when they just want to live there” is something that is happening, and yeah, it is because of economics, not because of bad people. Survival, not luxury of choice.

Me again 08 Nov 05

Chuck hit it on the head, square. There are always extremists. The majority voice in the media from Christianity is that Christians would like a return to fundamental morals that our country was founded on. We’d like to not be hassled.

The majority voice in the media from Islam is kills the Jews, and eradicate the Christians.

If Islam is something else, then why don’t the leaders of this religion say otherwise? Sure you’ll hear one or two say something different, American Muslim professors perhaps, a moderate in the middle-east who doesn’t want to ruin his trade agreements. But their voice pales in comparison to the hate from virtually every other muslim leader.

Case in point: Iran’s president stating Israel should be destroyed. Where was the outcry from Islam? Non-existant as far as I could tell.

We’re getting slightly off topic here, but the truth is the truth.

Mark Haliday 08 Nov 05

Quick! Let Germany invade AGAIN, I’m sure they can stop the rioting.

Me again 08 Nov 05

I had always thought the main tenents of Islam were: to accept Allah as the one true god, Pray, give alms to the poor, make a pilgrimage to Meeca, and fast during Ramadan. Thanks for clearing things up for me.

Funny, the message we get from Islam world leaders is - destroy the infidel. Remove “zionism” - and rid the world of any infidel (i.e. Christian) religion. Do many muslims agree with your statement - sure they do. But the movers and shakers of said religion are NOT those people. They hold no power, they hold no public opinion and they do not appear to appeal to a younger generation of Muslims.

If that is Islam’s message, it would be great if they practiced it, instead of just proclaimed it.

Original Kyle 08 Nov 05

Great point. The mullahs and islamic elders in France could stop the rioting in an INSTANT with a decry or order from the mosques to the muslim community, but they sit silent… most likely basking in the glory in their “day of reckoning”

Michael 08 Nov 05

“That is so sad that people would feel that way.
The few bad apples are spoiling the bunch.”

Lisa,

I can’t beleive I have to say this. Most people have no problem with immigrants. There is nothing inherently wrong about immigration.

HOWEVER, many people have a problem with how immigration can affect their country. If a government provides many social programs then having too much immigration will reduce the quality of those programs. Furthermore, when a society artificially inflates labor prices, through previous immigration policies or minimum wages or unions, too much immigration will cause a decline in wages and make finding a job more competitive. Usually, citizens of the country who have grown accustom to their artificial wages get angry when this happens.

Furthermore, people become concerned that immigration may affect their freedoms. When people look at governments in the middle east that preven women from driving or going to school, they become concerned that the immigrants from those countries may try to change our laws to reflect those customs.

Finally, ramanan is just a troll. He is a canadian who hates america for who knows what reason, who will say anything to try and make america look bad. If he were american he would run around calling canadians a bunch of godless, communist hockey fanatics.

Francisco 08 Nov 05

This has nothing to do with immigration, the rioters are criminals, and that’s all there is to it. They continue destroying property because the police has not done enough to stop them. If the police were to take down the leaders of each rioting mob, after properly warning them to desist or be killed, the riots would quickly end.

The problem with Europe, and with America, is the lack of moral certainty to defend what is right. If those riots were led by white supremacist neonazis instead of black muslims, the police would have already dealt with them. But in our current era of political correctness individuals are no longer criminals, instead, it is groups that are “oppressed”. So we are afraid of dealing properly with criminals who happen to be members of one of those “oppressed” groups.

What we need is a zero-tolerance policy towards breaking the law. I can peacefully assemble with my group to complain about whatever it is that I want to complain, but as soon as I start destroying property, that’s it, I should go to jail, or be killed if I resist arrest.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

First of all, I just want to make clear, that the first Kyle who posted in this thread, is different from myself, the one who posted the last 3 posts by Kyle. :-)

Secondly, @Chuck: Again, one of the key differentiators between the Christians and the Muslims that you mentioned, is the economic gaps, as well as the Tyranny of Place that many muslims encounter.

A white, Christian fundamentalist living in the suburban U.S. is going to have several economic (and to a lesser degree, social) incentives to keep him from making the sort of decisions that you believe are more common in the Islam religion. In addition, the white Christian fundamentalist living in the U.S. is generally going to have a more stable, and more respected rule of law, which is likely to keep him/her from seeking a form of “vigilante justice”, for lack of a better term at the moment.

Similarly, a Muslim living in a economically and politically depressed, and corrupt environment is much less likely to have these same incentives keeping him/her from poor judgement and a sense of desparation.

One last tidbit, please do not take my use of the term Christian as a line of thought that I think Christians are somehow on equal footing with terrorists. Just going tit for tat in the discussion here.

Original Kyle 08 Nov 05

exactly. Politically correctness has handicapped and paralyzed governments from taking action for fear of “offending” someone. Not exactly the best way to keep your citizens safe.

Me again 08 Nov 05

The problem with Europe, and with America, is the lack of moral certainty to defend what is right. …

Oh, AMEN. I could not agree more. And it is only getting worse.

Michael 08 Nov 05

I think Francisco needs to run for office.

ramanan the troll 08 Nov 05

Finally, ramanan is just a troll.

So, let me get this straight. In this thread, we’ve all learned that immigrants travel to a new country in order to get the crappiest jobs they can, for the crappiest pay they can, in order to spite the ‘natives’. We’ve learned that Islam is built on a foundation of hate. We’ve learned that all immigrants are poor and backwards. We’ve learned that America needs to get back to its Christian roots. We’ve learned that the president of Iran is somehow representative of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. We’ve learned that if a Muslim converts to another religion, they must be beheaded.

And I’m the troll? Maybe, since I don’t seem to agree with everyone else who posts here.

He is a Canadian who hates America for who knows what reason, who will say anything to try and make America look bad.

Well that’s half true. I am Canadian. But, reading this thread, I obviously don’t need to do anything to make America look bad. Many of you are doing a great job all on your own. Keep the ignorance up.

Michael Koziarski 08 Nov 05

Simply compare the percentage of self-described Christians … who shoot abortion doctors and beat on gays with the percentage of self-described Muslims… who claim religious justification for killing others not of their faith.

I’m sorry, but you’re comparing apples with oranges. How about we compare the percentage of self-described Christians who shoot abortion doctors with the percentage of muslims who commit suicide bombings.

My guess is that you’ll find the percentages are around about the same. Whacko nutjobs are whacko nutjobs irrespective of their religion.

zane 08 Nov 05

“It’s one thing to let people into your country when they want to be fellow countrymen, but it’s something completely different when they just want to live there. Living and being are significantly different, and France is seeing these differences right now — in flames. “

So no immigration without assimilation else your country will burn!

This may be the post/thread that kills 37s for me. I’ve been reading for a while, but I think I’m done now. I agree with Ramanan when he says “I think this post is one of the most ignorant, racist, piece of shit posts I’ve seen on your site. And I’ve been reading this site for a very long time.”

Peace.

original Kyle 08 Nov 05

Not true. you hear of whacko christian nutjobs once in a blue moon. Muslims blow themselves up daily, all in search of those virgins in paradise.

Michael 08 Nov 05

Ramanan,

Your previous post perfectly explains why you are a troll.

People move to new countries for opportunities. Often times, so that their children have oportunities.

Islam is not built on a foundation of hate.

Not ALL immigrants are poor and backwards.

The president of Iran is not representative of the 1.3 billion muslims in the world.

If a muslim converts to another religion in america they will not be beheaded.

HOWEVER

Many terrorists are muslim.

Many immigrants are poor and don’t understand local customs.

The president of Iran is in charge of a rather large military and may be close to obtaining nuclear weapons.

If someone trys to convert a muslim to another religion in Iran they will be punished by death.

RFontaine 08 Nov 05

The only reason this same thing is not happening in the United States is the drug problem. With much of our disillusioned population on drugs, in jail, on the run, there is less chance of open riots in the streets while they are thusly pre-occupied. That is why America is losing the war on drugs - the powers that be do not want to win it, only keep it the problem simmering.

Already 10% of Americans own 90% of its wealth, and that figure is worsening day by day. One day the have nots of America will explode.

Anonymous Coward 08 Nov 05

Ramanan, sad but true, but many of your points the beginning of your post reguarding Islam are the sad facts of life. Each of these points is pure truth.

John 08 Nov 05

Yes Rfontiane, this is true. Much of the wealth and power in
America is held by people who DID NOT EARN IT. Accident of birth (inheritance) is NOT a great way to select who will run the country.

WealthyMan 08 Nov 05

Show me one modern country where the majority of the wealth is NOT held by a minority. Such a country does not exist.

Furthermore, it is worse in third world countires. How much wealth to you think Somali peasants hold vs. their controlling warlords? More like 99.99% to 0.01%.

Share the wealth! How’d that work out for the USSR - oh yeah, not too well.

Michael 08 Nov 05

John,

“Much of the wealth and power in
America is held by people who DID NOT EARN IT”

Bullshit. Take a look at the list of Forbes 400. Most of them started businesses and earned their money. And their is a funny trend to. The people who inherited their money tend to slowly fall off the list. Here is a link so you can see yourself.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/54/Worth_1.html?boxes=custom

zane 08 Nov 05

One last thing…

Anyone remember this site before it went off? I mean before the roadblocks and decks and appless web apps? And before this sensationalist, seemingly racist, political post?

Could we go back to talking about defensive design again? Honestly, I’d take the appless app over this nonsense.

Ok I’m done.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

Bingo wealthyman and Michael. Not only the Forbes 400, but speaking anecdotally, my family came from very poor backgrounds, and have succeeded wildly, as have most of my friends who come from poor backgrounds.

Also, again speaking anecdotally, the majority of my friends who are in the same age range as myself, and come from poorer backgrounds than myself are now making significantly more money than I am. I don’t think this is actually all that uncommon of a phenonmenon, and am beginning to see it as a natural benefit of capitalism.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Many terrorists are muslim. Many immigrants are poor and don’t understand local customs.

And many aren’t. That’s a totally vacuous statement; you aren’t saying anything at all. What exactly do you mean by many?

The president of Iran is in charge of a rather large military and may be close to obtaining nuclear weapons. If someone trys to convert a muslim to another religion in Iran they will be punished by death.

You don’t see people judging Christianity harsly because it’s practiced with such fevour and fundamentalism in the United States. Similarly, one shouldn’t assume that Iranian government and the clerics are somehow the gold standard of Islam, it’s true representatives. The clerics in power wish to stay in power. It’s as simple as that. Abusing relgion is an easy way to do that.

Crawler 08 Nov 05

Zane, what is racist about this post? Immigration and assimilation are real issues every country faces, not racist issues. Labeling them racist makes them irrational to discuss (which may be your goal).

JF 08 Nov 05

Anyone remember this site before it went off? I mean before the roadblocks and decks and appless web apps? And before this sensationalist, seemingly racist, political post?

1. There’s nothing racist about this post.
2. I don’t know about you, but I’ve been around here on SvN since the beginning and we’ve always posted on political and current event topics. We even say so in the description at the top of the screen:

“This is Signal vs. Noise, a weblog by 37signals about design, customer experience, entertainment, politics, Basecamp, products we like, small business, ourselves, and more. Established 1999 in Chicago.”

That’s what we do here. That’s what we’ve always done here.

Original Kyle 08 Nov 05

You don’t see people judging Christianity harsly because it’s practiced with such fevour and fundamentalism in the United States.

You don’t see Christians lining up muslims and sawing their heads off either.

s 08 Nov 05

You don’t see people judging Christianity harsly because it’s practiced with such fevour and fundamentalism in the United States.

Maybe that’s beacause they are not blowing themselves up and taking civilians with them? If they were, I’m sure you would see Christianity judged in the same light.

Face it, Islam has a PR problems on its hands. Those few who kill themselves and other innocent people around them are those who make the news. Were more Islamic leaders to publicly denounce and decry these acts, I think more people would be able to separate the extremists from the regular Muslims.

My closest friends since high school are Muslims (I am not one). They are as hard working as anyone I have ever met, and I feel sorry for them when they are discriminated against. One of my friends looks like the classic terrorist, and he has all sorts of problems. Muslims need to take care of these extremists before things will change. There’s no other way around it.

huge 08 Nov 05

Well, some information and pieces of thinking :

(Disclaimer : here, French guy, living in Paris)

* The map is _very_ misleading: the “PARIS” in large caps with a big fire, the dark background, sorry for all France-haters but this is not (now) Irak. Come on, there has been less that 50 cars burnt _in the center of Paris_.
* On the Black African people with several wifes: it is illegal. It happens. Social workers tries to seperate the wifes in different flats and have success so far. And also, this not the majority, only a few percent of black people.
* 95% of people in the suburbs aren’t troublemakers. These 95% work, found companies, help in community, no problem with them.
* In the media, you never see the 95% people from this suburbs trying to live normally, you don’t view them. You only view them and their positive side now, when there is problem. Don’t be surprised then by the events. Shame on the media.
* In the media, reality TV and stupid games only show you superficial things, easy money, stupid people, no more hard work, no more passion, no more altruist gift. Of course, all youth (not only youth from the suburbs) want the easy way if you aren’t be showed the hard way or you’ve seen your big brother make study, try and failed.
* Rioters are in symbolical suicidal mode: they destroyed, have of course a message but not in political tone, they can’t express it in political tone : in the 80’s some people tried (‘La marche des Beurs’) but where fooled by left-wing.
* French Black and North-African people have their ID checked several time a day for some. Me, white French, has _never_ been checked by police in street. I can’t be a bad guy ? But not all can be rooted to racism.
* Left-wing have a responsability: social peace buying with State-money, it’s necessary but also make people childish and doesn’t cure the problem to the root and didn’t stop the 5% which were causing troubles.
* Right-wing also have a responsability: ideological politics based on repression only, with less money gave to people who made social things, helped kids with scolar problems.
* To stop entire suburbs being turned into ghettos, a law called ‘SRU’ was passed to do 20% of social flats (called ‘HLM’) in each city. Lots of cities (read, cities with right-wing mayors) don’t apply this law and the burden for not applying it isn’t enough hard.
* Chirac & Villepin (PM) tried to play a very dangerous game: don’t do anything, Sarkozy will shoot in his foot with this but unfortunately, it failed, and now, rioters know their strength. Shame on Villepin & Chirac to play this game to try to stop Sarkozy for 2007.
* Sarkozy is happy. His master plan worked perfectly. Expect +10% in popularity for him.
* Le Pen, de Villiers and far right-wind are more than happy. Also expect +5% and “I told you so, there is too much immigrants, etc”, the same old extremist things.
* Islamists are also more than happy. They are very cool and don’t go in the game. Also, no need for them, they will get the jackpot after events : “French people don’t like us, they don’t want us, etc etc”.

So … everyone loses, extremists people win.

Now, the solution ?

* Media : the public media should be reformated and stop the spreading of fear.
* Apply the SRU law : put HLM in rich cities, no more ghettos.
* A bit more repression but targeted and hard and clear rules: keep your kids under law or you parents, will suffer (UK has some very effective and gradual laws like this). Seems too rude ? No, sorry, 95% of immigrants are OK, we can’t anymore be cute with 5% of troublemakers.
* Total war against the islamists, no more compromise with people like UOIF, shame on you Sarkozy who bought social peace with these people.
* Maybe a social service ? Send 18 years old people from rich cities to these suburbs to see what their parents didn’t solve and make them do some scolar help. It will open their eyes. Send people from the suburbs work in a farm to show them hard work, get up a 6 in the morning, animals, country or to the sea. Some of them never saw the Eiffel Tower even if they live at 20km from it !

PS: it’s really funny to see the coverage of foreigners press (they’re overreacted and inflacting) and it makes you thinking on coverage of for example US problem by French press …

Wolfgang 08 Nov 05

I’m quite amazed by the amount of overt ignorance and barely hidden racism showing in (some of) these posts. This is the last thing I would have expected on Signal vs. Noise.

Firstly, the riots in France are above all the result of misguided integration and urban development policies. The dangers of segregating the underprivileged into the banlieus have been known for years, as has been the serious lack of perspective for so-called immigrants. But throughout the eighties and nineties nothing has been done to remedy this situation.

Secondly, being proud of being a secular nation built on the values of liberté, egalité, fraternité just isn’t enough if these values are being held in high regard when celebrating war heroes, but neglected when it comes to so-called immigrants - who are in fact, as mentioned by ramanan, first-class French citizens. Latest example: calling the rioters ‘vermin’ (Sarkozy) instead of acknowledging the aforementioned problems.

To be sure, I’m not trying to defend people who burn schools and kill old men as being justified to do so. But to suggest that they do so because they are Muslims or immigrants unwilling to integrate is just plainly stupid.

In my country (Germany), we had similar discussions for a few years, and right now, everyone is asking whether a situation like the one in France could arise here. And again I here people talking of a ‘Leitkultur’ (leading culture) to which immigrants have to assimilate to avoid such a development. But at the same time studies show that in no other industrialized country educational success is as determined by one’s social background (family income, parents’ educational background etc.) as in Germany. Do they never learn?

Living in the city of Hamburg, I know pretty well about drug-dealing immigrants, Russian or Albanian gangs and problems of so-called parallel cultures. But in Germany, we also have regions suffering from excessive right-wing extremist violonce, with by any standard German culprits. The one thing violent outbursts in France, Los Angeles or Germany have in common: These violent acts are committed by seriously disorientated people lacking a perspective in life.

Again, by no means I want to justify those violent acts. But we have to know about the real causes to provide a cure.

Maybe some of you will say “So, it’s the government again”. It isn’t that easy. It’s up to us to take liberté, egalité, fraternité at face value. That means to demand respect for life and liberty from anyone - from the immigrant, from the Muslim, the Christian, the extremist, from my neighbour, from my friends. This isn’t about habits or religion, it’s about the basic rules of democracy and free societies. This means to speak up against Islamist ideology, but it also means to speak up against WASP arrogance and racism. And, yes, it means to make our governments do their best to provide everyone with an equal opportunity for education and social mobility.

Only when these opportunities are for real and still an immigrant (or anyone, really) doesn’t want to do his or her best to use them are we in a position to condemn.

RamanansConcscience 08 Nov 05

You don’t see people judging Christianity harsly because it’s practiced with such fevour and fundamentalism in the United States.

Fervent practice of fundamentalist Christianity - how does that manifest itself? Outside of a few wackos, it manifests itself in moral behavior and a conservative outlook on politics, foremost. Maybe they don’t celebrate Halloween and probably aren’t in favor of many liberal movements. They vote for a president that you don’t like.

Fervent practice of fundamentalist Islam - even if I give you the guys who flew the planes into the WTC were wackos - which many Muslims don’t agree with (ask most anyone in Palestine, Iran or Iraq - or even Saudi Arabia for example) what about the daily suicide bombings? What about the daily hate spewing forth? What about the fact that mainstream Islam does NOT decry this behaviour 99% of the time? Where are your clerics on this issue? I’ll tell you where, they’re behind the scenes, pouring gas on the fire. Don’t tell me this isn’t a problem in France either, because it is.

You are a troll, and you have NO idea what you are talking about - specifically about Christianity.

Anonymous Coward 08 Nov 05

The difference between Muslims in America and France. Answer: They are far better off in the US. They have jobs, they have an education, they have opportunity, they want to be Americans.

p8 08 Nov 05

“What about the fact that mainstream Islam does NOT decry this behaviour 99% of the time?”

Making up facts makes you a troll.

Ramanan the Troll 08 Nov 05

Kyle: You don’t see Christians lining up muslims and sawing their heads off either.

Kyle, you got me. Christians are the bees knees. Christians never do anything bad, and if they do, they aren’t actually Christian. Muslims on the other hand are always Muslims, whether they do good or bad. The Koran can talk about the murder one person equaling the murder of all mankind, but that’s just bullshit — the kill the infidels part is the only part of the Koran worth paying attention to.

Am I over simplyfying what you think? Probably. I’m guessing not by much.

RamanansConcscience: You are a troll, and you have NO idea what you are talking about - specifically about Christianity.

Yes, because the people talking about Islam here are obviously experts on the subject.

Jason: There’s nothing racist about this post.

Well thanks Jason. I had been confused for much of this thread. Just so we don’t misunderstand one another, I think your post is a racist piece of shit because you start off making the assumption the kids rioting aren’t French, which they are. Does not being being White make you less French? Apparently so. The French didn’t let any of these kids into their country. The kids were born their. They are French. If they lived in America, they would be “Your Fellow Countrymen” as you like to put it, whether you like it or not.

Original Kyle 08 Nov 05

Making up facts makes you a troll.

Hardly made up. You surely don’t see Islam mullahs crying for the stop to violence, and that’s just a fact, like it or not. Nope, they’re in their Mosques praising allah for this great blessing of jihad against the infidels.

original Kyle 08 Nov 05

Kyle, you got me. Christians are the bees knees. Christians never do anything bad, and if they do, they aren’t actually Christian.

Oh sure they do. No Christian is perfect, in fact that’s the basis of Christianity. Jesus came to forgive our shortcomings as sinning mortals here on earth. Your point is ignorant however because if you compare the common “bad” a typical Christian does, which is in America most commonly personal sins (adultry, etc), against muslim “bad”, it’s not even in the same ballpark.

Garri 08 Nov 05

I predict(ed) a riot

Kyle 08 Nov 05

@Ramaman:

I think you’re inferring more from Jason’s post than is actually there. I reread the initial post after Jasons comment, and I can see no comment that would imply racism. I think you’re automatically making the conversion: anti-immigration = racism.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Jason’s post is wrongheaded (though a good question), but I don’t see any racism in it.

JF 08 Nov 05

Ramanan, I never said anyone wasn’t French. They are French (as long as they are legal French citizens, of course). If they aren’t legal then they absolutely are not French.

But being French in label and French in spirit are different things. Just as terrorists use Islam as a label, Islam obviously doesn’t mean terrorism. I don’t think peaceful Muslims identify brutal Islamic terrorists as “fellow Muslims.”

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe these rioters want to pledge allegiance to France and become proud French citizens. Maybe this is their way of showing it. But if you listen to their religious leaders, they consistently denounce the west. I don’t see how you can denounce the west and want to be proud French citizens living a French way of life. Something doesn’t seem to fit.

JF 08 Nov 05

I’m not even saying anti-immigration. I’m just saying immigration and assimilation are serious issues facing all western countries at this time. There’s nothing racist about suggesting these are issues facing these governments.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

@JF:

You’re right, Jason; I apologize for the mischaracterization. I inferred:

“It’s one thing to let people into your country when they want to be fellow countrymen, but it’s something completely different when they just want to live there.”

to mean that you somehow thought the only people who should be allowed into a country are those that are predisposed to behaving to a certain preexisting set of norms within a culture of that country.

Again, my apology.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Jason:

You say, “Living and being are significantly different, and France is seeing these differences right now — in flames.” You say as much right after stating, “It’s one thing to let people into your country when they want to be fellow countrymen, but it’s something completely different when they just want to live there.”

So France is learning what lessons exactly? That they shouldn’t have let who into their country? Who is a countrymen in France, and who isn’t? Your post suggests that those rioting are the very people you wouldn’t want to invite into your country, nevermind the fact they have as much right to be their as any other citizen. Nevermind that they weren’t invited period, that they were born there. From the offset you treat the rioters as second class citizens, which by the sounds of things is how they are probably used to being treated.

Your post is poorly thought out at best, and at worse racist. I think it’s ignorant.

Now I don’t think violence is going to solve anything; really, it only damages your cause. However, the riots have got the children world wide attention. And this isn’t a new problem. It’s sad that it takes fires in the streets before people decide to give a damn.

Kyle:

I don’t think this post is anti-immigration per-say. I actually agree that a productive immigrant is going to be one that wants to be a part of the society they are moving to. However, if you live in a society that doesn’t want to have anything to do with you, where do you place the blame when things don’t work?

Original Kyle:

You can keep your overt racism to yourself. Christianity is awesome. You win. You truly are a champion of the 37signals cause.

ana 08 Nov 05

Just a Reminder, Most of those immigrants are from north africa, France colonisied Algeria for 125 years… Using their natural resources… manpower, soldiers… after the independance, that’s when most of those immigrants got their, they grew up under the frensh govt…

Paul 08 Nov 05

I’m with FineJames (see above)

>FineJames 08 Nov 05
>The French are paralyzed because they can’t figure out who to surrender to

viva la french toast 08 Nov 05

even while burning… france brings the p0rn! we love you france!

JF 08 Nov 05

ramanan, I’m suggesting that countries should not allow people into their borders if those people do not want to assimilate, yes. This isn’t racist or anti-immigration. It’s immigration of the right people with the right motives.

And yes, there are people that aren’t right for a country and don’t have the right motives. There are billions of people, but not all are the right fit for a specific situation. For example, I wouldn’t be a good fit for Iran — I don’t believe in their system or their vision. I shouldn’t live in Iran and they shouldn’t want me there.

I’m not basing this on color, race, religion, class, or economic standards. I’m basing it on a desire to be part of the society at large. You can be black or white or any shade in between, you can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, you can be rich or poor. But you have to be French. Or American. Or Italian. Or whatever country you want to be a part of.

Groups that head into another country to set up their own closed off societies are dangers to the host country. This goes for white supremacists as much as it goes for Muslim extremists.

But, whatever. I’m not going to have a conversation with someone labeling me a racist. Your head is already in the wrong place, and your blood is already boiling, to have a rational discussion about this.

huxley 08 Nov 05

Original Kyle: The mullahs and islamic elders in France could stop the rioting in an INSTANT with a decry or order from the mosques to the muslim community, but they sit silent… most likely basking in the glory in their “day of reckoning”

On November 7, 2005, the Union of Islamic Organisations of France issued a fatwa condemning the ongoing violence. Your apology to French “mullahs” is eagerly awaited.

Anonymous Coward 08 Nov 05

Original Kyle:

You can keep your overt racism to yourself. Christianity is awesome. You win. You truly are a champion of the 37signals cause.

ramanan-
My friend you are ignorant. If you’ll re-read my posts, I say nothing at all about the color of anyone’s skin. My posts are reguarding religion. There are black, white, yellow, and brown muslims, just as likewise there are Christians. Your “racist card” usage only furthers your point that you are a lost troll in a big scary forest of common sense.

Francisco 08 Nov 05

Ramanan, you are evading the fact that while all men are created equal, not all belief systems and cultures are created equal. Secular reason gave us the airplane and the skyscraper, it took us to the moon, it mapped the genome, and it cured smallpox among other things. Islamic fundamentalism stole our airplanes and smashed them into our skyscrapers, gave us the suicide bomber, televised decapitations, and the burka.

So the desire to restrict the immigration of Islamic fundamentalism does not make one a racist. Martin Luther King said once “I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character”. Jason, Kyle, Michael, myself, and the other posters are not judging the islamist rioters by the color of their skin, we are judging them by the content of their character.

Your race is your unchosen hardware, but your culture is your chosen software. So racism is unethical for the same reason that culturism is ethical. Race is unchosen so it cannot be judged, but culture is chosen, so it must be judged.

p8 08 Nov 05

Apparently 99% of muslims are inheritently evil:
Original Kyle: “What about the fact that mainstream Islam does NOT decry this behaviour 99% of the time?… You surely don’t see Islam mullahs crying for the stop to violence, and that’s just a fact, like it or not. Nope, they’re in their Mosques praising allah for this great blessing of jihad against the infidels.”

99% of christians are evil too, but that’s just part of their religion:
Orginal Kyle: “No Christian is perfect, in fact that’s the basis of Christianity. Jesus came to forgive our shortcomings as sinning mortals here on earth.”

So you can sin. You just have to be a christian, not a muslim.

Orignal Kyle: “Your point is ignorant however because if you compare the common “bad” a typical Christian does, which is in America most commonly personal sins (adultry, etc), against muslim “bad”[ Which is what? A typical suicide bombing?!? ] , it’s not even in the same ballpark.”

Yes, the US showed the muslim world it’s moral superiority by invading a ‘muslim’ country while knowing the justification was based on lies (and in the process killing a whole lot of innocent civilians).

huxley 08 Nov 05

JF: I don’t see how you can denounce the west and want to be proud French citizens living a French way of life. Something doesn’t seem to fit.

I know what you mean, Pat Robertson and the fundamentalists are perpetually denouncing the way of life in the West, yet I’m having no luck getting them thrown out of the country! It’s a shame that “those people” don’t understand that freedom means believing exactly what you and I believe.

Kyle 08 Nov 05

@JF: First of all, I admire your willingness to continue to partake in this conversation, even after, as you pointed out, being incorrectly labeled a racist, not to mention the unnecessary cursing. I truly don’t know how you find the time to do so, and run a successful business. My hats off.

The only problem I have with your last post is that, most poor people in economically disadvantaged, and politically corrupt countries don’t really have the luxury to pick and choose which country they immigrate to. Like it or not, the U.S. and those in the European Union have more lax immigration policies.

My only stipulation for incoming immigrants is a willingness to work hard and be considerate of others. I consider all the interesting cultural differences to generally be a benefit for this poorly traveled anglo-cracka.

“Groups that head into another country to set up their own closed off societies are dangers to the host country. This goes for white supremacists as much as it goes for Muslim extremists.”

I do agree with this sentiment, and I generally think group self-segragation is intimidating no matter who is doing it.

BIG POPPA 08 Nov 05

Who cares

Anonymous Coward 08 Nov 05

Who cares

You will when you’re being shoved into an oven or gas chamber someday after Islam defeats america.

huxley 08 Nov 05

I call Godwin’s Law!!!!

p8 08 Nov 05

Yes, just like in all those other countries islam ‘defeated’.

Spike 08 Nov 05

Guess who is going to Paris for NYE :/

Truly selfish, but I’m more concerned about the prospect of some, uh, ‘real’ fireworks around the Eiffel Tower at midnight, than I am about the intolerant atmosphere in France. Anyone dare to suggest France haven’t been staring this in the face for a while now?

Anonymous Coward 08 Nov 05

Yes, just like in all those other countries islam ‘defeated’.

You’re right, the Crusades put a stop to that.

p8 08 Nov 05

I’m learning something new every day.

Apparently the crusades put a stop to the muslim gas chambers.

Kyle, could you post a link, so I can share this newly found ‘knowledge’?

Original Kyle 08 Nov 05

for the record, anonymous wasn’t intentional.

p8- my response was the fact that the crusades put an end to muslim conquerors, just incase you wanted a reality check.

original Kyle 08 Nov 05

and p8, you infer the crusades didn’t stop the muslim oppression. In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately 200 A.D. to approximately 900 A.D. the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc. was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam began to spread and become powerful, muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and “Christian” kings / emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken.

Anonymous Coward 08 Nov 05

Seriously, people, I think that some of you are oversimplificating things.

@kyle (not the original one)
What makes you think that muslim leaders are any more representative of a muslim majority than are christian ones of a christian majority? (Would you have agreed to having Chavez killed?) And, again, if in muslim communities there is more willingness to follow radical doctrines, we have to think about the real causes instead of blaming it all on the religion.

@Francisco
Maybe you should think about this, too. Christianity has given us such wonderful things as witch hunt, crusades and torture of heretics. The only reason why these practices are (hopefully) not accepted anymore is a history of religious wars and enlightenment. I am the first to admit that Islam hasn’t underwent this kind of history treatment yet (although I’d like to point out that there was some kind of Islamic enlightenment without which we wouldn’t have any knowledge of Aristoteles’ thoughts, e.g. - in the time of christian crusades!), but this isn’t about religion, it’s about history and politics. And reducing character to ‘adherent of religion x’ is not very far from racism, to be honest.

@JF
True, your post wasn’t racist. But ‘assimilating’ has, to me, a ring of ‘live your life as we would like you to do’. Here I would like to differentiate between following certain cultural habits and following the basic rules of democracy and free societies. If you meant ‘Follow the rule of treating everyone as being equal’, I would agree - who doesn’t follow this rule (e.g. by forcing women to wear burkas) is to be critized or even condemned. But if you mean ‘Live exactly as we do’, I would strongly disagree. Democracy and free society are not built on conforming behaviour, but on respect for the basic civil rights.

Andreas Climent 08 Nov 05

Sadly, I too feel that this post is ignorant.
As I interpret the text, Jason says that the rioters do not want to be french. I would like to see what facts that statement is based on.

Sure, me and some other commenters might interpret to much from the text. But when I first read it, I felt angry because you guys usualy post good content, and this felt ignorant and stupid.

Of course religion can be part of the problem as some commenters imply. But radical religious movements are problems independent of the religion they are (more or less) based on. Somthing interesting in this thread is that everyone says that the majority of “terrorists” are muslims. You should all consider that a terrorist and a freedom fighter can pretty much be the same thing, it just depends on from whoes perspective you look at him/her.

I do agree that imigrants should learn the language and follow the laws, but what exactly defines a “fellow countryman”. Do you need to fit into the stereotypes?
What exactly says that your view of a country, and the factors you need to pass to be a fellow countryman is what most people agree with? Everyone will have different opinions because we are all different. That is something we should embrace and use to it’s advantage instead of trying to fit everyone through the same ideals of a good citizen.

As someone said above, I believe that a great part of the problem is how media handles immigrants, and news in general. If you are fed images of everything bad everyone does and everything bad that happens on a daily basis, sooner or later you will think that those images reflect the reality. So if immigrants are shown as pushed down in the media, they will probably also feel pushed down after a while.

Of course there is some truth to the things we see in media, but if they instead of just showing everything bad that happens, also showed everything good, I believe we would have a better society.

Andreas

Wolfgang 08 Nov 05

Just to clear things up - the latest anonymous post was mine. Sorry for the missubmit.

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Here is my issue with this whole thread, which I feel i’ve repeated a few times already. I’ll do it once more, and then try my best to shut up because no doubt I have crossed over from being outraged to being obnoxious.

Jason, what bothered me about your post is the suggestion that France’s current woes are due to France letting immigrants who don’t want to be there move in. You used the phrase, “… France is seeing these differences right now — in flames.” You have taken two seperate issues and mixed them together in a way that is offensive. As Huge — whose comment is one of the few gems in the thread — and others have pointed out, the problems in France were bred in France. It ceases to be an issue of immigration when the children rioting are in fact French citizens, children born in France. By framing the riots as an immigration issue, you suggest that the children rioting are outsiders. And no doubt they are, as this seems to be how they are treated.

Even parts of your follow-up comment are objectionable. Obviously the rioters are unhappy with the situation they are in. They aren’t happy with France. Does their violent dissent make them less French? If you somehow ended up in Iran, would you feel compelled to be quiet in the face of all the oppression? Is the will of the majority always right? I would argue no. In the case of France, you have disenfranchised youth who were not considered a problem till they started burning cars in the streets. The majority had no interest in them, or their problems. Reading your comment, this would appear to be a non-issue. The rioters don’t want to be French. I wouldn’t either if I was in their shoes.

I called you racist because your words suggest that those rioting aren’t French. They are angry Arabs and Blacks first, and French citizens second. It’s one thing to write you don’t care about whether someone is Black or White, it is another thing to actually mean it. I’m probably reading way more into what you’re writing then perhaps you would have people read. We can’t talk face to face, and short comments aren’t an ideal way to communicate. But this website is read by thousands of people, and I felt compelled to say something after reading your post.

Was that more level headed? Maybe?

Christophe 08 Nov 05

FineJames & Paul, please go back to school.

Lisa 08 Nov 05

I have a serious question…I’m not trying to be a smart ass.

Ramanan, you say: The rioters don’t want to be French. I wouldn’t either if I was in their shoes.

Well, if they don’t want to be French, why don’t they leave France?

ramanan 08 Nov 05

Lisa, if you are a teenager and poor, where would you go? I don’t think leaving is an option persay. If you are poor, it is hard to immigrate period. France is part of the EU, so presumable you could move around Europe, but I imagine this is prohibitively expensive for most. Furthermore, if you feel that there is injustice in the society you live in, perhaps that is worth staying and fighting to overcome. (Mind you, I get the impression the children rioting are just frustrated, and probably aren’t contemplating the politics of what they are up to.) Also, it seems like a failure of the state when your citizens are disenfranchised. A country like France should not have people fleeing its borders.

warren 08 Nov 05

Wasn’t able to keep up with the discussion until now.

See, that’s the problem. Seeing immigrants as ‘poor and backward’. How do you expect them to react to that attitude?

They come from countries where women are treated like dirt. They don’t speak the language of the country they’re in. They’re largely uneducated and unskilled. Forgive me for pointing out the obvious. You can go do surveys of immigrants and calculate average income with a spreadsheet and if they make much less than most people, you call them poor. You call a spade a spade instead of pretending everyone is so great and wonderful like most liberals want to.

It’s not my fucking problem to fix. It’s not problematic that I plainly observe that people burning down fucking cars while screaming “Allahu akbar” in France are backward and poor. So no, it’s not a problem. I expect them to react by making the best of the situation and working hard for a better life.

Hint: Turning the area you live into a miniature Muslim shithole the way the north African immigrants have does not constitution working for a better life. I’ll spare you the trouble of typing it and reply: “it’s not the immigrants’ fault, it’s always whitey’s fault. More handouts are necessary.” I know, I know.

Hubris Sonic 08 Nov 05

liberal immigration policies in the 1960s
Most of the people arrested in the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles were illegal immigrants
don’t want to assume the responsibility of a proper citizen
idle population on welfare
protect the right of the minor