SEASON 2 - EPISODE 110 - MAY 22, 2024

Behind the Scenes of the REWORK Podcast

Elaine Richards, 37signals’ Chief Operating Officer, shakes things up by flipping the script on host, Kimberly Rhodes. They discuss the behind-the-scenes work of producing the REWORK podcast and selecting topics that resonate with the audience. They even dive into Kimberly’s background in podcasting and how the podcast has changed over time.

Watch the full video episode on YouTube

Key Takeaways

01:41 - It all started for Kimberly with an event industry podcast.
05:19 - The process of creating and reviewing the final product.
10:41 - Expanding episodes from audio-only to adding video.
12:00 - Creating the video set.
14:01 - Broadening podcast content beyond the REWORK essays.
19:15 - Not all episode ideas make it to air.
20:58 - Evaluating the podcast stats.
22:22 - The most popular REWORK Podcast themes and episodes.

Podcasting Tools we use

Podcast Recording – SquadCast
Podcast Hosting – Buzzsprout
Transcripts and Captions – Rev
Social Clips – Opus Clip

Episode Mentions

Links & Resources

Transcript

Kimberly (00:00): Welcome to Rework, a podcast by 37signals about the better way to work and run your business. I’m your host, Kimberly Rhodes, and this week we are changing it up just a little bit. I have the third part of the executive team at 37signals, our Chief Operating Officer, Elaine Richards joining us. Elaine, welcome to the podcast.

Elaine (00:21): Thank you. It’s exciting to be here. I am…

Kimberly (00:24): Changing things up this week.

Elaine (00:26): We are changing things up, so I thought that it would be fun if we flip the script. I’m Kimberly, as many of you know her and have become familiar with her through the podcast and other video things that she does for 37signals, and I thought with Jason and David traveling this week that it would be interesting for people to get a behind the scenes, look at the show and learn more about you, which I should tell everybody, you know, everybody, you hated this idea, so that’s great.

Kimberly (00:51): Well, like everything we do at 37signals, it always starts with a pitch. So Elaine actually wrote a pitch for me about what this episode would be and I said, do you think people actually care? And the answer is maybe. So we’ll see how it goes.

Elaine (01:03): I think so. I don’t think you realize how many people enjoy watching you on this and other media that we put out. Anyway, I think this is really fun and the more, as Kimberly said, I wrote a pitch, the more I got into the pitch, the more questions I had, I’m super interested, so I think that’s a good enough case.

Kimberly (01:19): Well, let’s do it. So if anyone who is listening, if you have any interest in podcasting, this is probably also a good episode to listen to. We’re going to go behind the scenes of how the Rework podcast works, so…

Elaine (01:30): A hundred percent.

Kimberly (01:30): Elaine, take it away.

Elaine (01:31): A hundred percent. And I think that has a lot of value in and of itself. So let’s start here. This is not your first rodeo with podcasting.

Kimberly (01:41): That is true. So before coming to 37signals, I was in the event industry. If you’ve listened to the podcast at all, you’ve probably heard me say that before, but I had an event industry podcast. I had a co-host and every week we had on a new guest, and we did that for, gosh, I want to say six years.

Elaine (01:56): Oh, that’s a long time.

Kimberly (01:57): Yeah, it was a really long time. So yeah, we started that I think in 2016, end of 2016 if I’m not mistaken, and did that through 2022 just before I came to work here at 37signals.

Elaine (02:09): Nice. So you’ve had tons years and episodes. Do you remember how many episodes you did of that other show? Can you rough it out?

Kimberly (02:17): Gosh, I don’t know. I could look it up and I’ll put it in the show notes, but it was called This Week in Weddings, which spoiler alert, don’t name your podcast for how often you want to put it out because then you’re forced to do it every week. That was probably the biggest learning lesson. Why do we do that 'cause now we have to do it every week.

Elaine (02:35): That’s actually a good takeaways.

Kimberly (02:35): So it was like six years, I want to say 300 episodes maybe is probably my best guess time. It was a lot. A lot.

Elaine (02:42): So what have you learned about being a good host? What makes it go?

Kimberly (02:49): It’s interesting because I think for most people who are starting a podcast, hosting kind of falls into two buckets. One, you’re keeping the show going live when you’re on the air, but also the organization of it because there’s a whole slew of things that happen behind the scenes from not only if you’re having guests on inviting them on, getting them scheduled, recording, editing, putting it out, social media, all of those things go into every single episode. So there’s a lot of organization. I think that is the first thing separate from actually getting behind the microphone that I think is important. And then I would say the other thing that really is helpful is being a good listener. I kind of find people just interesting in general. I like to get to know people and hear their stories and ask questions. I think in general, I’m a pretty inquisitive person and so that helps a lot, I think.

(03:39): Oftentimes with Jason and David in particular, I might write a few bullet points of things that I’m thinking of in advance, but where the episode actually goes might be different. And so I’m really just listening to what they’re saying and nine times out of 10, the follow-up questions I’m asking are not things that I wrote down in advance. It’s based on something that they said that made me think of something else. And so I think that’s important is to actually listen. I think probably the worst podcast that I listen to is when the host clearly has, here are the eight questions they’re going to ask and they’re going to ask them regardless of what the answer was, to question number six, they’re going to go right onto question number seven. So I really try not to do that and just listen to what they’re saying, which then will lead me to another question typically.

Elaine (04:26): Yeah, I’ve noticed that same thing, right? When they clearly have a list, they’re not even listening to the answers.

Kimberly (04:31): It’s the worst.

Elaine (04:32): And I think where the best stuff comes out is where you pull that thread and you ask the follow up and you really get into the more interesting details.

Kimberly (04:39): And I think too, there’s also, I put myself in the listener’s perspective because I am, I’m literally just listening to it the same as the audience is. Like, what do they want to know? What’s the next question when you’re listening at your house or in the car or whatever for any podcast, I’m like, what does that person want to hear? The worst is when you’re like, why didn’t you ask this?

Elaine (05:01): Sure, yeah absolutely.

Kimberly (05:01): Why didn’t you go with that follow up? So I try to do that as much as I can.

Elaine (05:05): Cool. And I want to go back to something you said a second ago where there’s a lot of organization involved. It’s worth noting here. I think maybe in some bigger operations people separate out the job between the host and the producer, but you are the one-stop shop here. You do all of the things.

Kimberly (05:18): So I don’t do all of the things. I can do all of the things, but I don’t typically edit the audio and video just because it’s not necessarily worth my time when I have other responsibilities at the company. But it is something that I can do. I was doing it for my previous podcast for a while until I was like, why am I doing this? And so we had hired an editor, so I can do all of it. I don’t do that portion of it. I would say for anyone who is interested in podcasting, I think it is a good skill to have to be able to do it, even though it might not be something that you continue to do week after week. So I often, if we do an episode, sometimes something will be happening in the news or press or something where Jason and David are like, let’s talk about it right now.

(06:05): If we don’t put it out for a week or two weeks, it’s not going to be relevant anymore, so we need to record it one day and put it out the next day. In those situations, I do edit it because it’s just faster if I do it, as opposed to giving it to our third party editor who then has to fit it into a timeframe with other projects that they have on. So I think it is a good skill to have, but not necessarily the best use of your time if that’s not your main job.

Elaine (06:31): Sure. So someone else is doing the editing, but you’re still reviewing everything, right?

Kimberly (06:36): Yeah, it’s true. I end up, I said this to someone jokingly. We had an episode about Summer Fridays that was a little controversial within the company, and I was like, I’ve listened to every episode probably three times before it airs – first live as it’s happening, I’m obviously listening to it. Then I am getting the podcast transcript and it’s an AI transcript, so I have to also listen to it as I’m reading the transcript and make edits. AI can never spell David Heinemeier Hansson’s name right. Ever. So I always have to edit that. There’s sometimes words that AI won’t recognize. We did a recent episode where David mentioned the video game, Duke Nukem, AI didn’t know what that was. So I have to sometimes Google how to spell something to correct it, so I’m listening it to it then. And then in the final edit version, I’m typically listening to it one more time just to make sure there’s nothing we need to take out or adjust. So yeah, I am reviewing it. And then the same thing for video. I review the video even though someone else edits it just to make sure it’s how we want it to be.

Elaine (07:44): How I want to review. I mean, if we say an average show is like a half an hour, how many hours of review?

Kimberly (07:50): Well, I am watching it in two X.

Elaine (07:53): Ah. Got it.

Kimberly (07:53): So I usually listen in one and a half times video. I’ve already listened to the audio a couple times by then. So video I usually am watching in two x just to keep things moving.

Elaine (08:04): And I feel like, because I know you guys do your shows basically single take, so there’s not a lot of, let’s chop up all the pieces and make sure we got it perfect. How do you draw that balance though? Because this feels like a classic 37signals judgment thing to me, right? You want to put out something that’s good quality. You also don’t want to overproduce both because then it kind of comes off fake and it’s also to your point, not a good use of time. So are there key things where you say, this is my bright red line?

Kimberly (08:32): Well, I will say Jason and David are very good just off the cuff.

Elaine (08:38): So that helps.

Kimberly (08:39): That definitely helps. They don’t need a lot of editing because they really are just off the top of their head speaking so eloquently that it really helps. I choose not to edit out every ummm and like and all of those things because I think there is a fine line between when it sounds completely artificial. If you listen to podcasts that take out every single one of those or shorten every single breath, it just sounds unnatural in my opinion. So we don’t really make those adjustments. Some of the things I do choose to edit out are if there’s mentions of dates or timing of things, because sometimes we’ll be several weeks ahead, so we might record a podcast episode and not release it for three weeks. And so if they casually mention a date by the time it comes out, that date might be passed or it just might not make sense.

(09:32): So sometimes I do edit those things out to keep the episode as evergreen as possible. I mean that’s one of the great things about podcasts. You put it out and it lives forever. People can listen to it years from now, my podcast that I had years ago still gets downloads, still gets fresh listeners even though it’s been two years since we’ve put out a new episode. So I try to keep them as time generic as possible. Of course, there are some times that we have very specific episodes. The very first episode I did was our Leaving the Cloud episode, which to date is one of our most popular episodes. That obviously has a very specific time because it was the time that we were in, but most of our episodes you could listen to at any period of time, two years from now, five years from now, and they still make sense. So those are one of the only things I really try to avoid. Date specific things.

Elaine (10:28): And so when you started doing this, we were doing podcasts, like traditional audio only podcasts.

Kimberly (10:34): We were.

Elaine (10:34): At a certain point, we moved to video.

Kimberly (10:38): We did.

Elaine (10:39): You have feelings about this?

Kimberly (10:41): No, it’s actually been great. It’s funny because I pushed back on it simply because I was like, that requires me to look presentable more than I normally do in my work from home remote status. But David’s like, I think he maybe listens to podcast visually or watches them on video and he’s like, video is a big thing. I kind of lost the argument, but it has been great for us. People do watch it on YouTube and on Twitter. So yeah, we started doing that last June, I believe.

Elaine (11:17): So other than you have to be camera ready and there’s a little more work to be done in the editing and so forth. Any other differences? I mean, you’ve been doing it for what, almost a year now? So on the whole good you think?

Kimberly (11:31): Yeah, I do think it’s interesting because I’m not one who watches podcasts. I don’t. When I listen to a podcast, it’s like I’m working out or I’m in the car. I’m definitely listening to it doing something else, but that’s not how everyone operates. So it’s just interesting to expand, to reach people where they are, versus necessarily how I listen to podcasts. So people watch it on Twitter, people watch it on YouTube.

Elaine (11:59): And that actually brings up one last thing and then we’ll get off this sort of production thread. So you have to be ready, your background has to be ready. That’s a real place that you’re sitting in front of. That’s not a screen, right?

Kimberly (12:12): No, this is my house. I’m actually in my loft area, which is where my home office is. I used to, so when we did audio only, and the first, you’ll see this in the first, I don’t know, three or four months of video podcasts. I was in a different space because I used to podcast in my bedroom closets, which by the way, podcasters or potential podcasters closets are super popular for podcasting because they’re enclosed spaces. The audio quality is typically pretty good, and with clothes, you’re using that to absorb some of the sounds, so you’re not hearing a lot of echoes. So I always podcasted in that confined closed space. When we started doing video, I was like, oh gosh, typically my shoes are behind me in the background. So I actually post a picture. My husband, bless his heart was like, okay, we’re going to figure this out. So we hung a curtain right behind my curtain are literally all my shoes. So that’s how we started doing the podcast video. And then we started doing live podcasts, gosh, maybe earlier this year, and I was like, well, for that kind of production, I need my big monitor. I need more than just the 13-inch laptop screen.

Elaine (13:28): More to see, more to manage.

Kimberly (13:29): When there’s YouTube and Twitter and LinkedIn live feeds. I need more real estate space. So I ended up coming upstairs to my actual work desk.

Elaine (13:40): Got it.

Kimberly (13:40): So this is where I am. It’s literally just my house.

Elaine (13:43): So I’m not going to ask you to move camera. I know you’ve probably hooked up to a lot of things, but maybe you could post a picture with the episode, make a sense of what the set looks like.

Kimberly (13:51): Yeah, I’ll put it on the video. We’ll put a little video of where my desk is.

Elaine (13:56): Awesome. Awesome. Okay, so that is all our how to topics. I want to talk more about the Rework podcast in particular. You started as host, I think we said this about 18 months ago, and when you stepped in, so not only so you’re experienced podcaster, but new to this show, new to the organization. I mean you were only in the company a couple months.

Kimberly (14:17): Yeah, two months.

Elaine (14:19): We had been following a format that was kind of following along with Rework the book, which is excellent, and kind of giving a live update on thinking about some of the essays in the book. So you mentioned the first episode. Tell me about the first episode, not just what it was about. People can go look at that, but what’s your experience here?

Kimberly (14:36): So it’s interesting because, well, let me go back a little bit if it’s okay. I started with the company in August of 2022, and then in October took over as the host and shortly after I wrote a pitch as we do at 37signals, which was, I think we can do more with the podcast. It used to be before I started, we went through the Rework book chapter by chapter by chapter in order. My argument was it’s not a book club. We can use some of those chapters and essays for discussion, but I don’t think it should only be limited to the Rework book in order. And some of those essays are very short. A couple paragraphs maybe might not be an entire episode. So in my pitch it was like, yes, let’s use Rework, but also It Doesn’t Have To Be Crazy At Work. They’re newer book, there’s some great essays in remote that would be worth discussion plus whatever’s going on in the world. So that’s kind of where it started. With that, the first episode ended up being our moving the cloud, moving out of the cloud episode.

Elaine (15:42): Obviously not in the book.

Kimberly (15:42): Not in the book, very timely. And it was with David and our director of operations, Eron, who has been a multiple time podcast guest, and honestly, about a topic I literally know nothing about, the technical details of moving in or out of the cloud completely over my head. So that first episode I was like, I just don’t want to say anything stupid to be perfectly honest. But with most of these episodes, Jason and David and Eron, in that case, it’s their expertise. So I really am just kind of setting up the topic and letting them go. I think I maybe asked two questions that entire episode and that’s how some of the episodes go. I just ask a couple questions and they just go with it. So it ended up working out.

Elaine (16:34): So that was great. And then from there, yes, so some of the episodes have been sort of related to book content. Some of them break away completely based on the news or whatever else. Where do you get the topics?

Kimberly (16:47): That’s a great question. Sometimes I’m pulling them out of thin air and making them up. Most times, I really am just paying attention to what Jason and David are talking about because I think it’s kind of twofold. One, it has to be a good topic, but it has to be a topic that they are interested in talking about at the time. So some of our essays in Rework or It Doesn’t Have To Be Crazy At Work are great and they can talk about them. But if I can tie in something that’s happening currently, it is helpful. So I spend a lot of time on their Twitter feeds to see what they’re talking about, what are they tweeting about and their blogs, which I’ll link to their HEY World posts. Both David and Jason are very active writers. I typically lean into those if they’re talking about it there or they’re tweeting about it, it’s something that they’re passionate about in the moment. I try to lean into that a bit. And then I also think about things that we do here at 37signals that I think people would be interested in that maybe aren’t specifically the book, but just how we work or our policies or how we’re doing things here. Those seem to be popular episodes as well. So when something seems to resonate, then I try to lean into that a little bit more.

Elaine (18:00): Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of that in general, all the topics about management or how to work or how to hire and all that kind of stuff is very universally appealing, and so people tend to always tune in for that stuff.

Kimberly (18:12): The “how we work” seemed to be very popular.

Elaine (18:16): Yeah. You mentioned earlier you might come up with a handful of questions for yourself. Do you share the questions? Do you tell them in advance?

Kimberly (18:27): So yes and no. So I do post my own notes, which includes some thought starters and questions. I do post that in Basecamp typically the day before, and I would say nine times out of 10 they come to the podcast just open to what are we talking about today? And they can just roll with it, which I think is…

Elaine (18:48): Fresh, unprompted

Kimberly (18:49): Fascinating. It’s a gift to be honest. So I do prep myself in advance. I don’t think that they much do because mostly it’s topics that they just know. It’s what they’re living and breathing every day so they can just talk about it off the cuff, kind of like we’re doing right now. I could just talk about this 'cause this is what I do. I think they kind of look at it the same way, if I had to guess.

Elaine (19:13): Excellent. And have you ever had the topic vetoed? Can I ask?

Kimberly (19:16): Oh, I have, yeah. Yeah, it’s not often, but it has happened. One I can think of in particular, I actually have pitched it twice with some period of time in between, which is an episode or I’m sorry, an essay in their book called Calm Goodbyes. I think it’s in It Doesn’t Have To Be Crazy at Work, which is about how the company handles when an employee is let go, how we send out a public announcement. And for me as an employee, I’m like, I think having worked at other companies, how we do it is not how a lot of places do it. I think it’d be interesting to talk about. And their viewpoint, which I understand is like, yeah, it is interesting, but it’s also probably not a calm goodbye for the people who are being let go, so let’s avoid that one, which it makes total sense. I can see both sides of it for sure. That’s the only one I can really think of that they’ve been like, no, we’re not going to do that one.

Elaine (20:17): That is a really kind and generous point of view, right? Yeah. If you’ve been let go, it’s not like…

Kimberly (20:24): You don’t want to hear a podcast episode about it.

Elaine (20:25): Yeah, you don’t hear about it. Yeah, I get it. So you filmed, let’s see, a year and a half’s worth of episodes roughly weekly. We take a little break in the summer and the Rework podcast overall it goes up and down the rankings. I don’t look all the time, pretty consistently in the top 50 or so ranked US management category. Do you look at that at all? Do you look at downloads? Do you look at anything?

Kimberly (20:52): So I do, so it’s always like 50 to a hundred in US, but what’s interesting is India, it’s like number 15 in management podcasts in India, which is interesting. I look at that some. What I do look at is individual downloads, like episode to episode, how many downloads each topic is getting, if you will. It’s a little bit more complicated now that we push it out in so many different channels. It used to be we could just go to one place like our podcast host, see everywhere that it’s been listed in one cumulative number. Now there’s YouTube numbers and Twitter numbers plus podcast numbers, so it’s a little bit more complicated, but those I look to just for a general sense of what resonates with audiences and what doesn’t. Yeah, and it’s interesting because sometimes I’ll think something’s going to be very popular and I’m like, oh, it was just, okay. Podcast statistics for anyone who’s listening is notoriously questionable, meaning they’re very hard to explain, if you will. Podcast companies report on downloads, the number of downloads, but that doesn’t necessarily mean because someone downloaded it to their phone or their device that they actually listen to the whole thing or any of it, listen to a portion of it at all. So it’s notoriously hard to calculate, but we still can get a good sense of what is popular episode versus a not popular episode.

Elaine (22:19): Theme wise, what’s popular?

Kimberly (22:21): How we work, anything that’s specific to this is how we do something. A recent episode that was very popular was How We Work: Fewer Meetings, More Check-ins, talking about how we don’t do a lot of meetings and we use automatic check-ins and how that looks for the company. That was very popular. Also, an episode Software Has Bugs, which was a writeup that David did on his HEY world, and I was like, Hey, that seems interesting. Let’s talk about it. And it is a very popular episode. So I think we have a lot of people who are listening in the software field, so I think anything that’s software related also gets a lot of hits.

Elaine (23:02): Interesting. And now this year you mentioned this, we’ve started doing live shows. We just had one last week.

Kimberly (23:11): We did. So fun.

Elaine (23:13): Tell me. So fun. Are you being charitable?

Kimberly (23:17): No, no…

Elaine (23:18): It’s fun. I manage 12 things at once.

Kimberly (23:19): No, really, I do find it fun. I don’t know if fun’s probably not the right word, but it is, energizing is probably a better word for it. Typically we’re just recording amongst ourselves, and so it’s kind of like three people talking on a Zoom call, if you will, each in our own separate spaces. Being live is you get that interaction from people who are watching, which I think is a level of energy you don’t necessarily get when it’s just three people in their separate spaces. It is technically harder, but it’s a nice change of pace I think. We just started doing that at the beginning of the year. We’ve only done a few of them, but I think it’s a nice little addition and change of pace from just the regular.

Elaine (24:03): Do you think you’ll do more?

Kimberly (24:04): Yeah, I hope so. I think so.

Elaine (24:07): And we had some guests on, which is not common outside the company, guests come on, ask questions. I thought that was really fun.

Kimberly (24:13): It’s the first time we’ve done that, had people submit questions for Jason and David, and then instead of just reading the questions, which is what we typically do, we invited people to join us on the stage, if you will, and show them on video and ask their question to Jason and David live and they could interact with each other. So that was kind of fun. That was the first time we’ve done that. It wasn’t really under the podcast brand, just kind of the 37signals brand, but I was still hosting, so kind of wrap it all together.

Elaine (24:41): I do like that there was, as you said, that interaction between the people who came on ask questions so they could ask follow up. I was not in the company when this happened, but apparently years ago when we had a physical office, we used to do a thing called Office Hours and people would physically come into the office and engage in sort of a similar kind of thing and get advice, and I think that was…

Kimberly (25:00): I did not know that before my time as well.

Elaine (25:04): So if people have been listening or watching this long, I think it’s time. I think we’ve held out long enough. We need some payoff here, Kimberly. We know what people are here for. They want to know. They want to hear about the behind the scenes, the bloopers, the near disasters, the spill the tea lady.

Kimberly (25:26): I wish I could say I had a ton of great stories, but things run pretty smoothly nine times out of 10. I think the only things that have gone wrong, occasionally we’ll have a technical glitch where someone’s video won’t completely render. We always get the audio, but sometimes video just like the technology of it and recording in three separate spaces will sometimes glitch. That’s kind of annoying, but it’s probably the biggest problem. Also because we’re not in a studio space. I’m at my home, Jason’s at his home, David’s at his home.

Elaine (25:58): Sirens or…

Kimberly (25:59): Exactly.

Elaine (26:00): I dunno.

Kimberly (26:01): When we did the q and a live that you were just mentioning, my doorbell rang a minute into it and I was like…

(26:08): oh my gosh, hoping nobody could hear it. So things like that. Sometimes it’s like someone will have to be like, hey, hold on, let’s pause real quick. I need to go tell the gardener to stop their leaf blower or whatever. Those are probably the most kind of problematic things that happen. I will say that I often, I feel like I’m sometimes the first one to hear news hear, just because it’s Jason and David talking to each other and I’m kind of an observer. The episode that just launched last week, it’s the part two of the ambition episode. They revealed that our newest Once product is going to be free of charge, and I didn’t know that, and so sometimes my reaction not sometimes, always my reaction is very genuine when I’m like, oh, did not know that. Or surprised in the moment because I sometimes learn things live as we’re recording.

Elaine (27:05): Yeah, well, I’ve talked to 'em about that a couple of times and they’re very passionate about being able to speak off the cuff, and it’s part of what adds to the genuine flavor of not just the podcast, but right, all their blog posting all their interviews and that kind of thing.

Kimberly (27:21): And the podcast is no different. I think savvy employees know, listen to the podcast if you want to know anything that’s happening, how Jason and David are really feeling.

Elaine (27:30): It’s on their mind, right?

Kimberly (27:31): Yes, absolutely.

Elaine (27:33): Yeah. All right, so no juicy gossip stories.

Kimberly (27:37): That’s all I got.

Elaine (27:38): That’s disappointing. I feel like we’re going to have to check in back in with you another six months. I mean, somebody’s got to spill water or I don’t know, something crazy.

Kimberly (27:46): It’s fairly uneventful to be honest, but that’s kind of how I like it. Elaine, this has been delightful.

Elaine (27:54): Well, thank you as well. I think all of our viewers and listeners will agree. It’s nice sometimes to see how the magic happens. I know you’ll probably post links to all of the tools and whatnot we use and the episodes and different things that we mentioned.

Kimberly (28:07): Oh, sure. I can share the software that we use for recording plus hosting. We use something called SquadCast for recording and BuzzSprout for hosting the podcast episodes. I have a couple of AI tools that I use for transcripts and social clips, so I’ll link to all of that in our show notes.

Elaine (28:26): That’ll be super useful.

Kimberly (28:27): Well, with that rework, it’s a production 37signals. You can find show notes in transcripts on our website at 37signals.com/podcasts. Full video episodes are on YouTube and Twitter, and if you have a question for Jason or David or Elaine about a better way to work and run your business, leave us a voicemail at 7 0 8 6 2 8 7 8 5 0. You can also text that number. We just might answer your question on an upcoming show.