Temperature Checkwith Jayne Ogilvie, Sarah Park, Patrick Filler, and Anitra St. Hillaire
One of our colleagues on the Basecamp customer support team, Jayne Ogilvie, wanted to find out how other tech companies with remote staffs handle issues like communication, career development, and hiring. Jayne sent out a survey and got back a wealth of information and ideas about how other teams work together. In this episode, we hear more from two participating companies: Sarah Park of MeetEdgar talks about how their staff gathers internal feedback on important decisions, and Patrick Filler and Anitra St. Hilaire of Harvest talk about taking on the challenge of making their company more diverse and inclusive.
- "Introducing Research & Innovation Days on Support" (Signal v. Noise) - 00:15
- MeetEdgar - 00:56
- Harvest - 1:03
- Sara Park on Twitter - 8:21
- The MeetEdgar company handbook - 10:10
- Help Us Build a More Diverse and Inclusive Harvest - 14:29
- Patrick Filler - 14:55
- PowerToFly - 16:28
- Meet the Harvest Team - 16:54
The Full Transcript:
[00:00:00] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.
Wailin: [00:00:01] Welcome to Rework, a podcast by Basecamp about the better way to work and run your business. I’m Wailin Wong.
Shaun: [00:00:07] And I’m Shaun Hildner. And today we’re diving into a project that a colleague on the Basecamp customer support team took on.
Wailin: [00:00:13] Our support team does something called Research & Innovation Days where they get dedicated time to work on their own projects. It’s totally self-directed and gives them a break from answering customer emails, which is usually the bulk of their day-to-day work. One of our colleagues, Jayne, used her Research & Innovation time to conduct a survey of companies that are similar to Basecamp in that they’re tech companies with remote employees, like us. She asked them open ended questions about things like hiring practices and career progression and customer support and then she wrote up some of her findings for Basecamp.
Shaun: [00:00:47] To kick things off, we’ll talk to Jayne about her project and then you talked to two other companies who participated in Jayne’s survey.
Wailin: [00:00:54] I did. I talked to MeetEdgar about how they use Google’s survey to gather feedback internally from employees and then I talked to Harvest about their efforts to make their staff more diverse.
Jayne: [00:01:15] I’m Jayne Ogilvie and I work on the customer support team at Basecamp.
Wailin: [00:01:21] And you are here to share about a project that you carried out, called Temperature Check.
Jayne: [00:01:27] Yep.
Wailin: [00:01:28] And can you talk about where you got the idea to do the project?
Jayne: [00:01:33] Yeah, so I work remotely and this is the first job I’ve had that’s been remote work. And so, in this job, I’ve done casual reading of other companies’ blogs and listening to other podcasts about remote working. So, I wanted to dig a little bit more about, you know, what the other similar companies are doing in terms of their remote working. Like, do they have similar policies, practices. So, I thought about just going out and asking them and getting some information, basically.
Wailin: [00:02:03] You were interested in—
Jayne: [00:02:04] Yeah.
Wailin: [00:02:04] —kind of like-minded companies or companies in the same industry as Basecamp.
Jayne: [00:02:08] Yep. So, definitely similar like-minded industries, or in the tech area and also those that had an active support team so that we could literally compare working practices across the customer support group.
Wailin: [00:02:23] What do you think are some of the challenges that remote support teams face that might be special to having a geographically distributed team? Something that would be different from a bunch of people in the same room doing customer support?
Jayne: [00:02:39] I think the biggest one for me, especially, was going from working with your whole team around you in one place, and going to actually being at your desk, on your own, in your house. Not having like people around you just sort of grab to ask questions or have that general office banter. So, that was, that’s been quite, I think that is quite a challenge for people.
Wailin: [00:03:01] And you’re based in England and so you’re on EU hours, right? So you don’t overlap with—
Jayne: [00:03:06] Yeah, that’s true.
Wailin: [00:03:06] —where most of your coworkers are based, right?
Jayne: [00:03:09] Yep. So most of my team are in America and they log on during the day, during different times. Some of them I’m coming in from the west coast, just literally our paths cross at the end of the day. So it’s like, hi, bye.
Wailin: [00:03:25] You had eight topics that you wanted to get into. How did you… what are some of those topics and how did you decide those were the areas you wanted to focus on?
Jayne: [00:03:32] So, some of the areas I really want to know about were staff retention, cross-team working, creativity and how different policies can kind of encourage that.
Wailin: [00:03:43] You reached out to a bunch of companies and about a dozen completed the survey and send responses back, right?
Jayne: [00:03:49] Yep, that’s correct. Yep. I did reach out to a lot more but they didn’t reply. But these ones are super keen about taking part, which was great and they were really open to sharing.
Wailin: [00:03:57] What were examples of some of the questions that you asked?
Jayne: [00:04:00] So yeah, some of the questions that I asked were, for example, do you have any tips on how to hire for diversity? Quite broad questions, but it enabled people to start from the beginning and work their way up with a whole complete answer. How does your team manage progression like career and skills wise? Could you describe anything awesome your team does to better engage with your customers? And I just wanted to get people literally thinking about the broad picture of their response and so they can literally just open text, type and just type, type, type away. And there was literally no limits to what they could type. And then I went through and analyzed it and picked out some of the key points in each area. I think it was really interesting.
[00:04:47] Another company that we surveyed, when we’re talking about inclusivity. So, when you’ve got a remote team dispersed all the way around the world, it’s quite hard sometimes for everybody to have an opinion in one place. So, if you’re in an office, people would ask questions, maybe in a team meeting every day or something and get everybody’s feedback. So, one of the things that one company does, which I think was really interesting is this idea of when there’s a big company decision to make, surveying all staff on a Google survey, which is quite a good way of getting round the geographical constraints of the team and make sure that everybody’s included and having their say. Because also with different people in the companies as well, some people are less likely to want to use all the online channels to post their complete answers and opinions about things. So, it’s quite a good way to get a snapshot.
Wailin: [00:05:32] It’s like a deliberate way to gather feedback and make sure everyone has a chance to contribute, right? Because I feel like at Basecamp often big discussions happen a bit more organically on massive discussion threads. And, like you mentioned, not everyone chimes in either because they feel intimidated by how much has already been said or because maybe they’re in a different geography and by the time they wake up there’s 10 responses and they’re like, Eh, I don’t want to pile onto this.
Jayne: [00:05:59] Exactly. So true.
Wailin: [00:06:00] Or it just gets lost in a sea of notifications or something, right?
Jayne: [00:06:02] Yeah, yeah. And there’s often so much going on and everyday working. So yeah, it does get lost sometimes.
Wailin: [00:06:09] So, what do you think are some of the next steps?
Jayne: [00:06:11] It’d be really good to publish it within the realms of that group so that everyone could anonymously see or if they would like their names published too, to see the actual findings across all of them so that everyone can use it as a resource to help them so that it’s all in one place and that’d be really useful. And then maybe writing something on Signal v. Noise about it. Some more findings. And then potentially doing it every year. It’s an annual sort of report or like a check, maybe making it a bit more succinct and a bit different or have an input from the other companies have different questions that they’d like to see answered. And we could probably answer it two for them from our Basecamp perspective. And just creating a group of people across these companies that have… that are able to, I don’t know, get a sense check every year on these aspects.
Wailin: [00:07:01] What I really like about this project is that the initiative came from you during one of your Research & Innovation Days. It wasn’t some kind of corporate top down thing where they decided they were going to do it and it had all this like red tape or bureaucracy wrapped up. It’s like you just came up with some questions you wanted answered and it’s just kind of peer to peer, right? Like, you’re reaching out to fellow support people at other companies. I feel like it’s super targeted and useful. And you really kind of get to the heart of what you want rather than some kind of corporate project.
Jayne: [00:07:38] Yeah. That’s exactly what I wanted. You could say it’s a bit like a benchmarking report or something quite corporate. But yeah, I didn’t… I definitely wanted to stay away from that and make it quite casual. So, it was, or, it is like a peer to peer thing where it’s just a learning exercise. It’s nothing that anyone’s going to judge anybody else on or anyone’s going to hold in it anything to account or anything like that. It’s just an interesting piece of work that we can all learn from and work together on. And then yeah, hopefully that is how it will end up next time.
[00:08:05] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.
Wailin: [00:08:08] Jayne had mentioned that one company uses Google survey internally to gather feedback. That company is MeetEdgar, which was started in 2014 and makes software for scheduling and managing social media posts. I talked to Sarah Park whose title at MeetEdgar is operations advocate.
Sarah: [00:08:31] Advocate is sort of the name that we use for the people who run the different departments in our company. And, operations at our company covers the full umbrella from finance to company culture to hiring, and to just generally how we’re running the work environment day to day for our employees.
Wailin: [00:08:49] When did company culture become something that you were going to work on in a more conscious way?
Sarah: [00:08:56] I actually think it started really early. It kind of came pretty normally to us because we were working remotely from the very beginning. So, even when there were just four or five people on our team, because we were working remotely, it was so important for us to make sure we were communicating well with everybody.
Wailin: [00:09:17] I do feel like working in a remote company, it can be really tricky to take the pulse, or take the temperature in a collective way. And so, I was curious to hear kind of how you tackle that particular issue that I think is endemic to remote companies especially.
Sarah: [00:09:32] I think there’s a lot of different tools that are out there now where you can collect feedback from people on your team. In particular, there’s a lot of slack add-ons and things like that nowadays, but, we really just… I think it was less about the tool for us and more about just making sure that we were asking a question out to the whole team and giving everybody the opportunity to respond to it privately. And, you know, to know that somebody would be reading those responses.
[00:10:00] We’ve had to balance what gets asked one on one versus what gets asked in a survey. Because, if you’ve read our handbook, you’ll see one of our values is kindness and I think kindness in our company… Sometimes, it veers a little bit more towards people being polite with one another. And, what we found was when we were talking to people one on one and really sitting down and trying to get a good feel for how we were doing as a company, there were a lot of people who are a little bit reluctant maybe to share some negative feedback or critical feedback about how we were managing the team or how we were leading, our departments. If you disagreed with a decision that your manager had made, it’s a little difficult to sit down and look them in the eye and tell them that you disagreed with them.
[00:10:48] So, we wanted to also create an avenue where people can share those thoughts but feel like it’s more, a little bit at a distance. Um, and to know that, okay, somebody is going to go through these responses and read through them and I’m not going to hurt their feelings if I put it in this form. So, that was a really nice way for us to be able to do that, to just sort of, I guess, add a little bit of a buffer in between ourselves and our team members when we were worried that we might not get the real honest truth from them.
Wailin: [00:11:24] Are the surveys anonymous or is it anonymous optional, or?
Sarah: [00:11:29] You know, in general they’re not anonymous. We prefer not to do them that way because if we need to follow up with somebody, or even if we want to just check on our own progress to see if we’ve improved at something that somebody had a concern about. It’s always really nice to be able to circle back to that person and say, “Hey, do you feel like we’ve addressed your concern adequately? Do you feel like the situation has improved?” It’s really difficult to get that kind of feedback when surveys are done anonymously. That said, we have— there have been some topics that we’ve wanted to survey the team about that we thought maybe were a little bit more contentious or a little bit more nerve-wracking for somebody to share feedback about. And in those instances we’ve told people that leaving their name for follow-up would be an option.
Wailin: [00:12:17] And then are the results shared only with managers or are they shared widely across the company?
Sarah: [00:12:22] It depends on the topic. In general, the managers will always be able to view what one of your direct reports might’ve said about something that has happened in the company. We’ll share what some of the common concerns were and anonymize it so that people don’t feel like they’re put on the spot or feel like, oh, I was the only person in the company who had something negative to say about a decision.
Wailin: [00:12:48] What’s the range of topics that you would use a survey tool for?
Sarah: [00:12:53] We’ve used Google surveys to ask people on the team about anything from like trivial things like how do you like the agendas on our Monday meetings? All the way around to different things that we’re doing for company culture and even bigger decisions that we’re making strategically as a company.
[00:13:18] So, the most recent sort of major survey that we’ve sent out to the team has been around whether or not the team feels like we are being innovative as a product enough or whether we have a good product market fit and hearing from people about how management within our company has been handling their feedback about the product. So, we like to do, I mean there’s quite a range. We’ve definitely used Google surveys for… we tend to use it for almost everything, honestly.
[00:13:48] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.
Wailin: [00:13:50] Sarah and I talked about a lot more including how MeetEdgar thinks about transparency and puts that into practice internally. It was more than we could fit into this episode, so, we’re going to release a bonus next week with the rest of our conversation. And now we’re going to hear from another company that participated in Jayne’s survey. One of the major topics she asked about was diversity and inclusion. So, I wanted to talk to a company that’s taken on the hard work of hiring for diversity.
[00:14:24] Harvest makes time tracking software. And, back in November, a cofounder, Shawn Liu published a blog post about what he described as a glaring problem, namely gender and racial disparities and top leadership positions and the product team.
Patrick: [00:14:38] We took a good look at ourselves and Shawn wrote the thing that he wrote, which said, isn’t good enough. It wasn’t a thing that we did by choice or it wasn’t intentional, but it is something that has happened and we made that happen.
Wailin: [00:14:54] This is Patrick Filler. He’s a longtime employee at harvest and at the time of Shawn’s blog post, Patrick and another employee had just been promoted into senior roles. Those personnel changes helped prompt the internal discussion around the lack of diversity in the company leadership.
Patrick: [00:15:08] And so we just need to acknowledge it and talk about how we can fix it going forward. The first concrete step is outlined right in that post, which is, we wanted to hire an HR lead who had experience filling a team with people who represent diverse backgrounds and diverse ways of thinking. So that was, the number one thing. We knew that having someone who was different than us, who had different experiences than us would bring different ideas about how to tackle that problem. And we were the ones who made the problem in the first place. So, how can we, you know, to just decide that we’re going to change it on our own was probably not the most realistic outcome.
[00:15:53] We immediately started looking at how can we make sure that our job posts are reaching a more diverse audience, that they’re encouraging and welcoming to people who might be from a different background than the people who typically apply. And how can we make sure that our hiring process isn’t excluding anyone, either intentionally or unintentionally. S0, those were the steps we took first, was just broadening the pool.
[00:16:18] We tried a bunch of different job boards this time around, especially boards that were focused on more diverse audiences. One that comes to mind is a community called PowerToFly, which is a community that is about women in technology. And that post got a lot of attention. We got a lot of applications from PowerToFly. We wrote a job post that was I think fairly frank and honest. It was a post that said, we have this thing, we have this situation that we’ve made and we want you to come help fix it.
Wailin: [00:16:50] Earlier this year, Harvest filled the position.
Anitra: Hi, I’m Anitra St. Hilaire and I am the HR lead at Harvest. Patrick and I have a couple of mutual friends and separately two of those mutual friends who don’t know one another, put Patrick and I in touch, given the role that existed and they knew that I was thinking about sort of the next step in my career. So, that’s how I landed on Harvest. And I think one thing I will say about the job description as Patrick was talking about it is it, it was incredibly accessible, which was part of the reason I was excited about applying. It really was clear that you weren’t walking into a place that was doing everything perfectly, but there was a real belief from leadership that we needed to do better and we needed to think broadly and do more. So that was pretty exciting for me.
Wailin: [00:17:37] Before joining Harvest, Anitra lead HR at a media company.
[00:17:42] When you came in and you have these initial conversations about what the job would look like, especially at the outset, was the focus very much on hiring and kind of tackling the hiring a diverse team issue that, had kind of been the impetus for creating the position? Or was the hiring part of a broader mandate that included other HR functions, like cultivating culture and benefits and that kind of thing?
Anitra: [00:18:14] Well, the role when I stepped into it… it was more the latter. So, I’m not just focusing on hiring directly, but things like how do we develop a greater feedback culture? The reason that’s important is it’s really difficult to go into a place, focus strictly on the hiring end and expect that that’s going to move the needle in great ways. I think we really believe that it’s not just about bringing people in, but it’s making a place where people feel included, where someone, if you bring someone from a very diverse background into the organization that they feel supported and like they can excel here. And so things like making sure we really are clear on what our performance management policies are. We have really incredible benefits, which I think gives us quite an edge when it comes to attracting a diverse workforce, including the fact that we are largely a remote organization. So, that kind of stuff, it’s not just looking at who you can bring in, but it’s also creating the space where who you bring in, regardless of who they are, can be successful.
Wailin: [00:19:16] Anitra sees inclusivity as one of the core parts of her job. There are a couple of other components too.
Anitra: [00:19:22] The second is really helping everyone at Harvest understand the role that they play in helping to bring people to the table and making sure that we have really great pipelines of talent. So, it’s not just about when we have an open role, do we have the right job description and do we go in the right places to have people find us? But keeping sort of an ongoing dialogue, connection, understanding of the space in which we operate. So, when we do have open roles, we kind of have places we can tap into really quickly. And the third is really making sure our leads, which are people who are going to be hiring managers, and us as the ops team, including myself in HR, making sure our processes and our practices are as free of bias as possible. And that we’re really thinking broadly and helping people understand what we mean when we say we want a diverse team. It does not mean we are going to only accept applications from transgender, black designers for example. That’s not how we’d like to think about it, but instead we want to make sure that our—we have a process that really brings people of all different backgrounds in and that we evaluate people in a fair and equitable way.
Wailin: [00:20:34] I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about inclusion, which is something you mentioned before that it’s not only important to bring in people with diverse backgrounds, but it’s important to make sure that they’re integrated into company, that they’re heard, that they’re contributing and they feel like they’re contributing meaningfully. And especially in a remote organization, which is the way that Basecamp is set up, too… How do you make sure that feedback gets communicated, that people feel at liberty to share what’s on their mind and that, kind of their feedback is making it all the way to the people who need to hear it?
Anitra: [00:21:15] I’d say, first of all, we are a remote organization, but I think we’ve done a pretty good job of having a lot of open communication channels. It isn’t particularly hierarchical here. And so, what I found is that people have lots of opportunities to provide feedback. Obviously, they can always talk to their leads and their teams through meetings. We have an open forum in our show and tell which is our all-Harvester meeting that we have every other week where people can ask questions, and they do. And I think we’ve done a pretty good job of making sure that the environment is such that people can say what’s on their minds in a way that’s respectful, obviously, when they’re providing more constructive feedback. But I think the organization is incredibly open to hearing it.
[00:21:57] Another thing that we’ve done in the past and we’re thinking through right now about how to revamp, is specifically asking people for their feedback in terms of our culture, in terms of our benefits, in terms of how they feel about working here. And doing that potentially through a culture survey, an engagement survey, etc., but really providing as many avenues as possible, both open and more anonymous/confidential, for folks to understand that they have a platform in numerous ways to provide feedback.
[00:22:29] I’ve also spent a lot of time with individual Harvesters one on one and I will ask them specifically how they’re doing. What do they love about being here? What would they love to see change? And I think that gives people a different avenue into providing their thoughts. It’s important given that we have introverted people and people who are new or shy or who just aren’t that willing to share in open spaces, that were really thoughtful about providing multiple channels to get feedback.
Wailin: [00:22:58] And I was wondering if you could also talk a little bit about on-boarding. If there are some ideas on on-boarding that you’re planning to implement or maybe have already put into practice? That also kind of fits into this bigger mandate of inclusion and making sure that new hires, as they come on board, are really integrated from day one.
Anitra: [00:23:23] I mean, the on-boarding is such a key piece of this because you’ve convinced them that they should be here and you know, within the first three months they’re going to get an idea of whether that was the right decision, or, they should have rethought that decision. So, one of the things I think that we’re doing now, and we do a good job of is we try to… We have a template of things that we do when we onboard folks. And it starts really from before signing. But you know, when you have a signed offer letter reaching out, I’m putting you in touch with people asking if there are things that you need specifically to do the work, that you need to do. And we, if you need a special kind of computer, if you need a certain set of… headset or a monitor that does a special thing. I think we try to be incredibly clear that just even in terms of the equipment you have, that you are able to work in the ways that best work for you as soon as you get in the door.
[00:24:14] We’ve built in coffee chats into our on-boarding process, which are basically introductory meetings with folks across the organization. So, on different teams than your own. The first show and tell which again is our all-Harvester meeting. We invite our new hires to take five minutes and let us know what they want us to know about them. And so, we want to give people the platform to let us know who they are in ways that feel comfortable and helpful as opposed to forcing them to provide certain pieces of information that… You know, in the society in which we live today, people aren’t always willing or comfortable sharing everything about them. Or, the same information that I might feel comfortable sharing, someone else might not. And so, I think it’s a way of helping them introduce themselves to the world, but in the way that they’d like the world to see them. And I found those presentations to be really helpful and interesting.
Wailin: [00:25:13] Anitra’s only been at Harvest for a few months, but her impact is already obvious to employees like Patrick.
Patrick: [00:25:20] I did the HR lead job for about a year and a half before, before we changed things around here and decided to hire someone from the outside. So, I had been here a long time. I started here as a developer and gradually started grabbing things related to our culture and related to our benefits and the way we hire and just, they started getting stacked up on my plate and eventually we made me the HR lead. So, there’s a lot of good that comes out of that. Obviously, I know the place better than someone who’s coming in from an outside position. But, I also came into that role with no experience, no background to fall on, no network of people to bounce questions off of. And so that’s something that is immediately clear when we brought in someone from the outside.
[00:26:13] Anitra, she comes with a lot of experience and that experience is super valuable. When you’re making a difficult choice or you’re working through a situation that’s stressful, it’s not just speculation and let’s fire off Google and see what articles we can find. Every conversation I have with Anitra, I hear the way I talk about Harvest and the way that we made certain decisions. And I hear the history of those things and how they’ve played out. And I watch her reaction to those things and how she responds. And there’s a constant learning and sort of rehashing in my brain of what would have happened if we did this particular thing different.
Anitra: [00:26:56] I do bring my experience from outside and there are times when I might have a thought or a question. And I think it’s just important to mention that because it’s this… I am not coming in here with all of my best practice knowledge and I’m going to apply it to the organization and everything’s going to be great. I think that is an incredibly horrible way to bring someone in the organization. But instead, I really think it’s a nice partnership between myself and Patrick and really I’d say the overall team. It’s just been, I think, really fun to come into a place where yes, I can give my two cents and my best thinking, but it’s really a give and take. How can I learn from what Harvest is doing? How can I learn from what Patrick knows, as much as it is him learning and the organization learning from me?
Patrick: [00:27:45] When you’ve been doing things as a company for as long as Harvest has and as long as Basecamp has, you don’t know if you’re doing it because that’s the way things are done. We always say that’s not a good enough answer, but still there are things that are so ingrained in your culture that that maybe they’re hard to revisit. And, Anitra comes with an experience and an outside perspective that will say, well that’s not right or that’s… We can do better than that. And that, I just am very grateful to have had that for, it seems like it’s been six months or a year already. It’s only been two and a half months, but it’s been really, really good.
[00:28:22] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.
Wailin: [00:28:25] Rework is produced by Shaun Hildner, and me, Wailin Wong. Our theme music is Broken By Design by Clip Art. Special thanks to Emma Courtland, Khrista Rypl, and Audrey McGlinchy for their help with this episode. You can find MeetEdgar at meetedgar.com and Harvest at getharvest.com.
Shaun: [00:28:42] Remember, next week we’ll have a bonus conversation between Wailin and Sarah Park of MeetEdgar. If you subscribe to Rework on Apple Podcast, Google Play music or wherever you get podcasts, you’ll get the episode as soon as it’s released. As always, show notes for this episode and all of our episodes are at rework.fm.
Wailin: [00:29:17] Do you want to hear a creepy/intriguing story about a raccoon?
Shaun: [00:29:20] I sure do.
Wailin: [00:29:20] This story was… I read it on my Facebook group of local moms, which is like my only source of information these days about anything really. And this mom said that they had a raccoon issue, I think it was in their house. And so, they had a raccoon in their attic or something. So, the pest control company came and put a trap in the attic. And her husband went up to check the trap and there was a stuffed animal in it.
Shaun: [00:29:55] Did the raccoon murder a stuffed animal?
Wailin: [00:29:58] Yeah.
Shaun: [00:29:58] To test the trap? To trip the trap?
Wailin: [00:30:00] Yes. I think the only conclusion to be drawn here is that the raccoon outwitted these homeowners by getting a plushy and putting it in the trap.
Shaun: [00:30:14] Amazing. I don’t like that they can do that. I don’t like, they’re smart. I don’t like that they have people hands. I don’t like how they look at you in the alley at night.
Wailin: [00:30:22] With their beady little—
Shaun: [00:30:24] Those giant glowing eyes, just like naaaaah.
Wailin: [00:30:26] I once encountered two raccoons in the garage.
Shaun: [00:30:28] Nope.
Wailin: [00:30:29] Early morning—
Shaun: [00:30:30] That’s their garage now.
Wailin: [00:30:31] I was going to exercise class and… I mean, I almost had a heart attack. They were so big, like it’s incredible how big raccoons can get, and one was on the ground looking at me and the other was in the rafters looking at me.
Shaun: [00:30:47] Ughh. That means there was a third one coming from the side.
Wailin: [00:30:50] I live in a new house now.
Shaun: [00:30:52] Yeah.
Wailin: [00:30:52] I just burned down that house and I moved to a different one.
Shaun: [00:30:56] Now, no one can play with it.